Inkscape Board Meeting Transcript for Friday, 2016-06-03

doctormonDid I miss the meeting today?Jun 03 11:37
FailBitthere's been no meeting yetJun 03 11:38
TavmjongInkscape Board Meeting in 20 MinutesJun 03 11:39
doctormonExcellent. One day we'll post the meeting in all timezones :-PJun 03 11:40
Tavmjongdoctormon: Check the board page for the meeting time.Jun 03 11:56
doctormonTavmjong: this board page: https://inkscape.org/en/*board/ or is there a wiki one too?Jun 03 12:02
Tavmjonghttp://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Board_Meetings#Place_and_TimeJun 03 12:02
Tavmjong============= Inkscape Board Meeting ===============Jun 03 12:03
TavmjongWho's here?Jun 03 12:03
EspermaschineHi :)Jun 03 12:03
ScislaCI'm pseudo-hereJun 03 12:03
brynnbrynnJun 03 12:03
Tavmjongbryce: tedg ?Jun 03 12:04
TavmjongAgenda: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Board_Meetings#AgendaJun 03 12:06
TavmjongMc-: ?Jun 03 12:06
TavmjongHmmm, seems to be a rather dismal turn out of board members.Jun 03 12:10
doctormonMaybeJun 03 12:10
doctormonI'll sms kkJun 03 12:11
TavmjongOK, just sent email to the others... let's give them a few more minutes.Jun 03 12:11
doctormonKrzystof is in Mexico he says, so won't be able to join usJun 03 12:13
doctormon"I sent a message about our license situation to Bryce. Let me know if you have any more action items on that front"Jun 03 12:16
TavmjongWell, let's just have a quick update...Jun 03 12:18
TavmjongI put together two very short hackfest pages. One for Gtk3 and one for 0.93. (They could be the same but if not, I think testing might be a good 0.93 hackfest topic.)Jun 03 12:19
Tavmjonghttp://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/HackfestGtk3Jun 03 12:20
Tavmjonghttp://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Hackfest_0.93Jun 03 12:20
TavmjongScislaC: Have you any more thoughts on a SCALE associated event?Jun 03 12:20
ScislaCI haven't been able to discuss it with Ilan yet, so not atm.Jun 03 12:21
TavmjongOK.Jun 03 12:21
Tavmjongdoctormon: Your listed as presenting a stock PP for us to use temporarily. Any update?Jun 03 12:22
doctormonWhat is a PP?Jun 03 12:23
TavmjongPrivacy PolicyJun 03 12:23
doctormonTavmjong: No movement on the Privacy policy, I complete forgot about it in the rushJun 03 12:24
TavmjongScislaC: Any update on the InkscapeForum situation?Jun 03 12:24
ScislaCNo response from MicroUgly via email or forum message unfortunately.Jun 03 12:25
TavmjongNot good....Jun 03 12:25
*ScislaC nodsJun 03 12:25
bryceheyaJun 03 12:26
Espermaschinebrynn an me are here to represent Inkscapeforum, i guessJun 03 12:27
EspermaschineLazur couldnt make it this time, so he asked me to comeJun 03 12:27
brycesorry I'm late I just spaced outJun 03 12:27
Espermaschinethe spam situation is horribleJun 03 12:27
Espermaschinei took over for a week deleting spam all dayJun 03 12:27
Espermaschinewe manage to get it kind of spam freeJun 03 12:28
TavmjongMaybe it's time to establish our own forum.Jun 03 12:28
brynnNote that we aren't surprised at lack of response from microUgly.Jun 03 12:28
Espermaschinebut the forum is...well not exactly dead...Jun 03 12:28
Espermaschinebut the community has a lot of problemsJun 03 12:28
TavmjongEspermaschine: Other than spam?Jun 03 12:28
Espermaschinewhen it comes to action, participation, a million noobs, etc.Jun 03 12:28
TavmjongWould we be better off with our own forum?Jun 03 12:29
Espermaschineyes, imo, the core is about ten peopleJun 03 12:29
bryceI had an action item to set up a committee for evaluating establishing a new forum, but I forgot to do that.  I'll make an effort to get a kickoff email out todayJun 03 12:29
Espermaschineposted artwork rarely gets a reactionJun 03 12:29
brynnI certainly 2nd on the need for an official forumJun 03 12:29
brycewe set the deadline to contact the owner of the current forum as todayJun 03 12:30
Espermaschineits basically helpdesk as Lazur already saidJun 03 12:30
brycesince there's been no response we can close that item out and move aheadJun 03 12:30
brynnYay!Jun 03 12:30
Tavmjongbryce: We've got two candidates for a committee right here.Jun 03 12:30
bryceTavmjong, I noticed :-)Jun 03 12:30
bryceTavmjong, think this is a voting matter, or a JFDI?Jun 03 12:30
Tavmjongand sounds like they know of a third...Jun 03 12:30
TavmjongJFDI?Jun 03 12:31
bryce"just f'ing do it"Jun 03 12:31
TavmjongJFDIJun 03 12:31
brynnseveral members have expressed interest in participating on a committeeJun 03 12:31
ScislaCTavmjong: I did a whois on the domain did some extra googling and found an alternate domain/email for microUgly... I'll shoot a message there.Jun 03 12:31
brynnBut would be good to have some devs tooJun 03 12:31
doctormonI do have an update about the inkscape forumJun 03 12:32
TavmjongI don't see a reason we need to vote.Jun 03 12:32
Tavmjongdoctormon: Shoot...Jun 03 12:32
doctormonstand byJun 03 12:33
brycebrynn, would you be willing to serve as chair for the duration of the committee?  It would have a limited charter for planning what to do, coming up with a recommendation on software, administrative policies, and so on.  The committee would dissolve once the groundwork is sorted out.  So it'd be a role lasting maybe a few months.Jun 03 12:33
brynnabsolutely!Jun 03 12:33
doctormonI put together a small forum app which should suffice for a basic functional replacement: https://inkscape.org/en/forums/ it has some good intergration to existing comments on uploaded items and while Maren has a long list of advanced features she'd want in a forum, this might be enough.Jun 03 12:34
doctormonI'm presenting it to the new forum committee as a possible option, but I don't expect it to be given any special consideration compared to other options for a forum.Jun 03 12:34
brycedoctormon, Tavmjong, ScislaC as we have a quorum how about a quick informal hand vote in favor of establishing an "Inkscape Forum Exploratory Committee" chaired by Brynn, chartered to establish a plan for the forum?Jun 03 12:35
brycemy vote is +1Jun 03 12:36
Tavmjong+1Jun 03 12:36
doctormon+1Jun 03 12:36
ScislaC+1Jun 03 12:36
TavmjongQuickest vote ever...Jun 03 12:36
brycesettled, thank you for taking the duty Brynn!Jun 03 12:36
Espermaschineif nobody is taking over with deleting spam and both Lazur and me are very frustrated about the community situation,Inkscapeforum will be unusable next weekJun 03 12:36
ScislaCIf something pans out from this more recent email (just sent), I will ping brynn about it.Jun 03 12:36
brycebrynn, the items to address are listed on http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Board_MeetingsJun 03 12:36
brynnmy pleasureJun 03 12:37
brycebrynn, we'll leave it to you to recruit a team, sounds like you're already thinking about getting some diverse viewpoints so that's greatJun 03 12:37
brynnOk, yes, I saw that.  ThanksJun 03 12:37
doctormonEspermaschine: It's likely inkscapeforum will have to be shut down if we don't hear anything from the creator. It hurts our brand to have site's claiming or appearing to be offcial.Jun 03 12:38
brynnI know it's a burden for them.  But as soon as Lazur and Esper give up, it will be overrun by spam quickly!Jun 03 12:39
TavmjongDo we have a time frame for a decision? It's sounds urgent.Jun 03 12:39
Espermaschineactually i dont care much about the where....as you all know, there is already an " emergency" forum, run by brynn, that gets kind of ignoredJun 03 12:39
doctormonKrzystof says +1 via sms btwJun 03 12:39
bryceEspermaschine, yes today was a deadline to hear back.  So if it helps reduce stress just consider it no longer official now, and "moving time"Jun 03 12:40
Espermaschinethe question is will the situation get better with a new official forum ?Jun 03 12:40
brynnwhat situation?Jun 03 12:40
Espermaschinebrynn: the community situationJun 03 12:40
bryceEspermaschine, that is indeed one of the key questions, and I hope this new committee will brainstorm a solid solutionJun 03 12:41
brynnThat's not going to change.  You can't force people to participate.  I expect the personality of the forum will stay the same.Jun 03 12:41
bryceok anything else on forum or shall we move to a new topic?Jun 03 12:41
Espermaschinethere is more to a  community then helpdeskJun 03 12:41
doctormonI've just removed the main link to inkscapeforum from our website (en)Jun 03 12:42
brynnWell, as I've said, I'll be an active and involved admin, as long as we're on IC, and will hear all suggestions and make whatever changes make sense.Jun 03 12:42
brycethere's some techniques to help steer a new community towards civility, so if that's a problem with the current forum I can share some thoughts on that with brynnJun 03 12:43
Espermaschinecivility ? its not about mannersJun 03 12:43
brynnI don't think civility is an issue, as far as I understand "civility".  But still glad to hear ideas.Jun 03 12:43
bryceEspermaschine, ah I misunderstood then.  Apart from spam what is the issue?Jun 03 12:44
Espermaschinewell maybe you guys would like to have a look at what we are doing, then you can judge for yourselfJun 03 12:44
bryceEspermaschine, quick synopsis?Jun 03 12:45
Espermaschinethere is no quick synopsisJun 03 12:45
Espermaschinefor example there is the question if forums are perhaps "old internet"Jun 03 12:46
Espermaschineinternet behaviour has changedJun 03 12:46
brynnFrom my understanding, I think Esper wishes for a more social forum, besides just being a helpdeskJun 03 12:46
Espermaschinethe forum suffers from apathyJun 03 12:46
bryceoh I seeJun 03 12:46
brynnI have not seen any apathy!Jun 03 12:46
brycewell, perhaps worth discussing in the forum committee, but sounds like not a board matter reallyJun 03 12:47
bryceok moving onJun 03 12:47
brynnWell, maybe from the  admin microUglyJun 03 12:47
Espermaschinerealy ? so when Maestral posts his artwork and nobody gives a fucking comment, thats not apathy ?Jun 03 12:47
bryceTavmjong, looking at your 0.93 hackfest pageJun 03 12:48
brycetesting focus is a good ideaJun 03 12:48
Espermaschineor when Lazur and me develop a new effect and nobody chimes in, thats not apathy ?Jun 03 12:48
bryceone other topic in relation to that is patch reviewJun 03 12:48
brynnEsper, let's discuss  in the c ommittee, ok?Jun 03 12:49
Tavmjongbryce: That was just a quick idea I had. I think a GTK3 hackfest is also a good choice.Jun 03 12:49
Espermaschineall that people care about is help symdrome, so they feel good about themselvesJun 03 12:49
Espermaschinei wont be part of any comitteeJun 03 12:49
brycewe have a very freeform process for patch acceptance, and one consideration might be to switch to a model where patches must get a review signoff prior to landingJun 03 12:49
brycee.g. the maintenance style used by cairo, X.org, wayland, linux kernel, et alJun 03 12:50
bryceI find it a cumbersome model personally, but can't argue that it *is* good for preventing regressions or code quality problemsJun 03 12:51
Tavmjongbryce: Are we talking about all code changes? We might be short human resources to review all patches.Jun 03 12:51
Espermaschineim out, good night allJun 03 12:51
brycenight EsperJun 03 12:51
bryceTavmjong, right that's the big downside to that modelJun 03 12:52
brynnsee you later, Esper :-)Jun 03 12:52
brycebrynn, I can see there's quite some passion around the forum topic, please don't be shy about asking us for assistance if things get too intense!Jun 03 12:52
TavmjongI do like the idea of requiring patch reviews but it would be a change in our culture.Jun 03 12:53
bryceTavmjong, looking at the Gtk3 hackfest, looks like it would be quite a meaty event, I like the look of what you've drawn upJun 03 12:53
doctormonCanonical used to do automatic merging, they had scripts.Jun 03 12:53
doctormonAnd no one could actually commit to trunkJun 03 12:53
brynnThanks Bryce!Jun 03 12:54
bryceTavmjong, yep agreed.  The model has its pluses and minusesJun 03 12:54
Tavmjongbryce: I was hoping tedg would be here to report on a Boston/MIT/GNOME event.Jun 03 12:54
bryceyeah me tooJun 03 12:54
bryceTavmjong, for a Gtk3 hackfest, and aligning it to another event, do you think it is better toJun 03 12:55
brycea) have it before the main event, so people aren't tired and can collaborate on coming up with questions and identifying problems so they know who to talk toJun 03 12:56
bryceb) run it in parallel to the main event to keep travel impacts/costs minimizedJun 03 12:56
doctormonI get the feeling like I may be in some kind of box here. bryce, am I being treated unfairly when I get passed over for organising things?Jun 03 12:56
brycec) hold it after the main event, so people have time to implement what they discussed with expertsJun 03 12:56
brycedoctormon, sorry, how do you mean?Jun 03 12:56
doctormonbryce: I was organising a Boston event, and then I get sidelined and not really given a good reason why.Jun 03 12:57
brycedoctormon, do you mean for organizing a boston event?  no offense was intended, just trying to spread the workload thereJun 03 12:57
Tavmjongbryce: I am not sure. The key is to have access to the experts.Jun 03 12:57
doctormonOk. I was excited about it, but I understand balance bryceJun 03 12:58
brycedoctormon, definitely no offense intended, I know you're busy with a ton of projects and ted seemed interested in working on the boston event so since he's not been quite as active I wanted to pull him in on that.  Nothing about you.Jun 03 12:58
doctormonGreat, sorry for wrong end of stick. I will be available for local connections still, hopefully tedg will be able to use me ;-)Jun 03 12:59
doctormonTavmjong: Draft PP https://inkscape.org/en/about/privacy/Jun 03 12:59
Tavmjongdoctormon: I'll have a look in a few minutes.Jun 03 13:00
*JonCruz is still amused to see the 'new' forums approach become "old internet"Jun 03 13:01
Tavmjongbryce: I guess what I am really looking for in a GTK3 hackfest is to sit down with GTK experts for a day or two. Exactly how it is timed isn't quite so important.Jun 03 13:02
bryceTavmjong, ahaJun 03 13:02
bryceTavmjong, so then in parallel might be bestJun 03 13:02
brycemake it a targeted information gathering missionJun 03 13:02
Tavmjongbryce: That could work if they aren't too busy with other things..Jun 03 13:02
JonCruzkey, though, is on people and participation. implenting tech is secondaryJun 03 13:03
bryceTavmjong, exactly.  So the question becomes which of the listed potential main events would the developers be least distracted by other matters?Jun 03 13:03
TavmjongYeah, we go in with some questions. Have them look at some of our code. Get feedback. Go off and work.Jun 03 13:03
bryceiow which of the events will be most outreachy focusedJun 03 13:03
bryceguessing that GNOME Summit would be least outreachy and most central plannyJun 03 13:04
JonCruzbtw, optional Gerrit code reviews might be helpful once we're on gitJun 03 13:04
bryceI'm not familiar enough with FOSDEM or GUADEC to decide between them but from what I've heard both are reasonably user orientedJun 03 13:05
TavmjongI've been monitoring the GIMPNet #gtk+ channel. I'm trying to get a feel of who is there (the freenode #gtk+ channel is useless). Maybe I can post a question there.Jun 03 13:05
bryceAugust sounds like a better timeframe than waiting until next FebJun 03 13:05
TavmjongGUADEC seems more appropriate. But can we organize something in two months?Jun 03 13:05
bryceTavmjong, so the second item along these lines is assembling a listing of topics / questions needing investigatedJun 03 13:06
bryceTavmjong, if it's small and we get moving on it we probably canJun 03 13:06
TavmjongYes. There is a GTK+ issues page.Jun 03 13:06
bryceTavmjong, depends on availability of Inkscape devsJun 03 13:06
doctormonGtk3 issuesJun 03 13:06
bryceTavmjong, can you put together a list of potential gtk3-aware Inkscape devs and email them for interest in being sent to GUADEC or FOSDEM to do info gathering for Inkscape on gtk3 topics?Jun 03 13:07
Tavmjonghttp://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Gtk_issuesJun 03 13:07
Tavmjongbryce: Yes, I can put together a list.Jun 03 13:08
bryceTavmjong, perfectJun 03 13:08
bryceTavmjong, that list looks great.  Might be worth starring items that are in particular need of expert advice.Jun 03 13:08
Tavmjongbryce: Can do.Jun 03 13:09
bryceTavmjong, if you start seeing strong enough interest for the August event, email me and I'll try and get a vote done asap for the fundingJun 03 13:09
TavmjongOKJun 03 13:10
brycealright, next topicJun 03 13:10
TavmjongPrivacy Policy?Jun 03 13:10
bryceok, although didn't doctormon already address that earlier?Jun 03 13:11
TavmjongHe just posted one during the meeting.Jun 03 13:11
bryceahhJun 03 13:11
brycelookingJun 03 13:11
bryceok, looks adequate as a starting point...Jun 03 13:13
doctormonI took bits about adverts and googleads/google out.Jun 03 13:13
TavmjongWhat kind o f security to we have to protect users' information?Jun 03 13:14
bryceyeah I see a bit more that could be excisedJun 03 13:14
brycelike, we don't have affiliates, so totally no chance of any info sharing, right?Jun 03 13:14
doctormonhttps, password encryptionJun 03 13:14
doctormonNot much, but we might share with gimp for examineJun 03 13:15
TavmjongI agree with bryce that it is a good starting point but we should take the time to look at it more carefully.Jun 03 13:16
brycedoctormon, well it specifically says aggregated demographic info; we don't and wouldn't share anything like that right?Jun 03 13:17
doctormonnoJun 03 13:17
brycedoctormon, I agree with Tav we should do at least a couple rounds of copyediting to customize it to our needs before we want to bless it as officialJun 03 13:18
doctormonagreedJun 03 13:18
doctormonI'll send an email to the devel listJun 03 13:18
*ScislaC nodsJun 03 13:18
brycedoctormon, however that said I think if there's urgency to getting a policy up asap, I wouldn't be opposed to this, esp. if we label it as WIP or somethingJun 03 13:18
bryceif there's not an urgency it might be better to just proceed with the editing process.  This gives us a solid place to start from, probably won't take too long to customize it.Jun 03 13:19
bryceok, last topic - fundraisingJun 03 13:19
bryceMc-, are you here today?Jun 03 13:20
TavmjongHe doesn't seem to be...Jun 03 13:20
bryceyeahJun 03 13:20
Tavmjongbryce: Did you follow up on the large donation?Jun 03 13:20
bryceok, well he had some action items for planning out merchandise salesJun 03 13:20
doctormonSounds goodJun 03 13:21
bryceI'll try and contact Mc- by email.  Would be nice to make progress on merchandise by next meeting.Jun 03 13:21
bryceScislaC, I didn't get back to you on that donation already, did I?Jun 03 13:23
brycelooking it up now.Jun 03 13:23
ScislaCNopeJun 03 13:23
bryceScislaC, do you recall the amount?  I'm not spotting a large figure in recent donationsJun 03 13:24
ScislaCIt should have been for $5kJun 03 13:25
ScislaCLate February was the last I had heard about it.Jun 03 13:26
ScislaCSo, it would have landed between 2/25 and now.Jun 03 13:26
bryceScislaC, hrm no sign of it, nothing over $300 so far this year that I can tellJun 03 13:28
bryceI'll look through the raw data after the meetingJun 03 13:28
ScislaCOkay then... let me know if you see anything, if not, I will follow up on my end.Jun 03 13:28
bryce(heh, jeez, someone donated $0.10, entirely eaten by paypal, with 0.00 for us)Jun 03 13:29
TavmjongIt's the thought that counts!Jun 03 13:29
doctormonlolJun 03 13:30
Tavmjongbryce: Did you see my email to you about notifying SFC about our funding votes?Jun 03 13:30
bryceScislaC, ok looking just from 2/25 to 5/26 in the raw data, there is nothing over $100Jun 03 13:30
ScislaCokay thenJun 03 13:30
bryceTavmjong, I did.  I definitely need to do that, just hampered by procrastination.  I need to go through all our votes this year and do a summary.Jun 03 13:30
bryceTavmjong, the last vote I did cc accounting so that one at least should be good to goJun 03 13:31
Tavmjongbryce: Which last vote?Jun 03 13:31
bryceTavmjong, the one on your travels for W3CJun 03 13:32
bryceI'll just need to set aside some time and go through and doublecheck everythingJun 03 13:32
Tavmjongbryce: Good! The key ones now are the hackfest and LGM funding votes including the hackfest dinner.Jun 03 13:32
bryceI *think* we've sent them everything necessary, but I could have missed one or two votes so will go through everything and doublecheckJun 03 13:33
doctormonTavmjong: do we know when we'll get recompense?Jun 03 13:33
TavmjongGreat!Jun 03 13:33
bryceI need to rejigger how I do the voting process so I just automatically CC them on the resolutionJun 03 13:34
Tavmjongdoctormon: I've got everything ready to go... just waiting to know that SFC has been notified about the votes as I got flack last time I requested a reimbursement.Jun 03 13:34
brycehaving to rely on my memory to do it manually is just going to lead to tears ;-)Jun 03 13:35
doctormonTavmjong: Damn them and their flackJun 03 13:35
doctormonthanks for pushing that.Jun 03 13:35
bryceyeah thanks, and ditto on the flack annoyancesJun 03 13:35
TavmjongUnless there is anything else urgent, I'm going to need to sign off...Jun 03 13:35
bryceok I think that's enough for this meetingJun 03 13:35
TavmjongGoodnight all.Jun 03 13:36
brycenext month maybe we can kick off another fundraiser ideaJun 03 13:36
ScislaCG'night TavmjongJun 03 13:36
bryce===  End of Meeting ===Jun 03 13:36
bryceon to release 0.92Jun 03 13:36
bryceScislaC, do you have time to chat on it?  or prefer just to continue swapping emails?Jun 03 13:36
brycedoctormon, or anyone else, have release related thoughts or questions?Jun 03 13:37
ScislaCI do have time, but need to step away for a couple mins firstJun 03 13:37
bryceok, sounds good.  I'll freshen up my coffeeJun 03 13:37
doctormonIs everyone clean on the releases on the website? Any questions there?Jun 03 13:37
brycedoctormon, clean?Jun 03 13:43
doctormonclearJun 03 13:43
jabiertxof_I have a question about string freeze. I notice is on 25 of may and I commit string on 26 on r14920 and in 14921Jun 03 13:44
ScislaCbackJun 03 13:45
brycejabiertxof_, ok sure, what's the question?Jun 03 13:46
brycebe careful not to make string changes going forwardJun 03 13:46
bryceblocker bugs are at https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bugs?field.tag=blockerJun 03 13:47
jabiertxof_Not a questions but not sure if this action need to be notifiedJun 03 13:47
su_vScislaC: sorry for not having kept my promise to help with (blocker) bugs for the release so far.Jun 03 13:48
brycejabiertxof_, one day after string freeze is probably not a huge deal.Jun 03 13:48
jabiertxof_yes not change strings more. I not know how is the translate process... great.Jun 03 13:49
brycedoctormon, apart from the thoughts I shared earlier, I'm ok with how things are working with the site.  I've got the process written up as paint-by-numbers for doing the source tarballsJun 03 13:49
ScislaCbryce: About Screen Contest has still not been started. doctormon was kind enough to video chat/screenshare a walkthrough of the admin interface for various aspects of it. I had attempted to enable the appropriate category on the website and it wasn't showing up. Unfortunately earlier this week we had a loss in the family and I haven't had an opportunity to get back to try again.Jun 03 13:49
brycedoctormon, so the most helpful thing to me would be to not make changes to the interface until post-release.  While there's a lot that could be improved at least I can run through all the steps mindlessly at this point.  I do look forward to the improvements for 0.93Jun 03 13:50
doctormonScislaC: Sorry to hear about the family loss. On the website there is often a caching wait, add ?something and check to see what shows.Jun 03 13:50
jabiertxof_my condolences ScislacJun 03 13:51
ScislaCsu_v: It's all good. If you have some free time and see any you see as "must block", let me know. I was trying to keep the list light to keep the release on track so far.Jun 03 13:51
doctormonbryce: Sounds good.Jun 03 13:51
bryceScislaC, sorry to hearJun 03 13:51
ScislaCthanks everyoneJun 03 13:51
doctormonthanks!Jun 03 13:52
ScislaCdoctormon: I did try adding the ? at the end of the url (did I need to add something after that), but it affect it.Jun 03 13:52
bryceyeah the caching behavior is the main annoyance I keep running intoJun 03 13:52
bryceat least now that I understand it, the irregularities are a lot less bafflingJun 03 13:52
bryceScislaC, no worries on the about screen.  We can give some additional time for it, if that would help.  The platform packaging seems to be lagging a bit, so we may need to delay for that regardless.Jun 03 13:54
ScislaCthat should have read "but that didn't affect it"Jun 03 13:54
bryceScislaC, alternately if you'd prefer we could recruit someone to assist or take over that task.Jun 03 13:55
bryceIt's also possible in the interest of expediency we could just stick with the 0.91 about screenJun 03 13:55
ScislaCbryce: I'd like to get it going honestly, I just don't know that I'll have the time for wading through the initial setting it up on the website. Help on that front wouldn't be turned down. If that were the case, publicizing and all that getting people involved piece I can definitely make a push on once we're good.Jun 03 13:57
bryceScislaC, if our interface is proving problematic, is it feasible to resurrect the process we used previously with deviantart?Jun 03 13:59
bryceWe should keep in mind for 0.93 for expediting the release process maybe we could do the about screen work a lot earlier on, and not do it as part of the release process itself.Jun 03 14:00
ScislaCbryce: it's certainly feasible, but it's way more manual and would probably net us a lot less participation (since people can easily create a website account with popular SSOs).Jun 03 14:01
ScislaCbryce: we could definitely do it earlier next go.Jun 03 14:01
bryceok coolJun 03 14:02
brycedoctormon, would you or someone else on the web team be available to help take care of the setup work for scislac?Jun 03 14:03
jabiertxof_make a cuple of t-shirts with the winner?Jun 03 14:03
brycejabiertxof_, to keep things simple, it'll be the same reward as we've done in the past - you get your work in the app :-)Jun 03 14:03
ScislaC:)Jun 03 14:04
bryceI'm reviewing the blocker bugsJun 03 14:04
brycesu_v thanks for triaging 1416674Jun 03 14:06
su_v>> 1416674Jun 03 14:06
InkBotBug #1416674: "0.91 doesn't show fonts loaded by font manager"Jun 03 14:06
InkBothttps://launchpad.net/bugs/1416674Jun 03 14:06
jabiertxof_nos as reward sorry id I explain bad, as funding method. anyway maybe s complex or not the momentJun 03 14:06
ScislaCjabiertxof_: definitely something that could be brought up when Mc- is available for the fund raising conversationJun 03 14:07
brycejabiertxof_, ah yes that's a good idea for a fundraiserJun 03 14:07
bryceso this bug I gather is a Windows regression related to changing of pango's packaging on Windows?Jun 03 14:07
ScislaCbryce: that bug is the one I've had a number of complaints about outside of official channelsJun 03 14:08
su_vnot related to packaging of pangoJun 03 14:08
brycecomment #12 in it has a workaroundJun 03 14:08
su_vthe win32 backend was turned off in the codeJun 03 14:08
brycesu_v, ahJun 03 14:08
su_v(by a Windows dev, in an attempt to fix loading symbol fonts IIRC)Jun 03 14:08
brycesu_v, do you know the commit number for that change?Jun 03 14:08
su_vI added a link in the commentsJun 03 14:09
doctormonbryce, ScislaC: Let me know where in the process you are and I'll lend a handJun 03 14:09
brycesu_v, is that a revertable change, or does undoing the fix cause a worse problem?Jun 03 14:09
su_vcomment 8Jun 03 14:09
su_vbryce: IIRC Alvin asked on the mailing list for help, because it's not working (or did not work) to just revert the commitJun 03 14:10
su_vno answer at the time, if I remember correctly (it's a while ago)Jun 03 14:10
brycewow, 165665 is ancientJun 03 14:11
brycebut the fix of commenting out pango (http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/trunk/revision/10742) looks like a horrible hackaroundJun 03 14:11
su_vhttps://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-devel/thread/1431175015259-4973635.post%40n6.nabble.com/#msg34098141Jun 03 14:12
su_vthere was help, but the message posted after that one fix wasn't promising eitherJun 03 14:12
brycehmmJun 03 14:13
su_vhttps://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/34098547/Jun 03 14:13
su_vmaybe there was some later conversation, I don't know right now.Jun 03 14:13
brycedo you know if alvin penner is willing to work on this bug?Jun 03 14:13
su_vno idea how e.g. switching back to win32 pango backend would affect the new OT feature support on WindowsJun 03 14:14
bryceoh -- what is OT feature support?Jun 03 14:14
su_vbryce: text & font, new tabJun 03 14:14
su_vfor Opentype font featuresJun 03 14:14
bryceI've subscribed apenner to the bug reportJun 03 14:15
su_vhttp://tavmjong.free.fr/blog/?p=1442Jun 03 14:15
su_v^^ describes the new OT font feature suppportJun 03 14:15
su_vbryce: I guess Alvon had hoped for more feedback/comments in that threat on the mailing listJun 03 14:16
su_vI read "- type some text and note that the text does not show up on the page anywhere" in Alvin's last message that it doesn't really work ...Jun 03 14:17
bryceok, I've left a comment on the bug asking alvin's inputJun 03 14:17
brycesounds like he's potentially an assignee for thisJun 03 14:17
su_vnot sure about thatJun 03 14:17
bryceoh and as a side note, my objective right now is to ensure all the blockers have assigneesJun 03 14:18
su_vif it needs more fixing to re-activate win32 pango backendJun 03 14:18
su_vdo we know it's what is the target for font handling in Inkscape on Windows?Jun 03 14:18
brycesu_v, in general I personally don't care much one way or the other for Windows-specific issues.  ;-) ;-)Jun 03 14:18
su_vok, no more comments then ;)Jun 03 14:19
brycebut I suppose least amount of disruption would be a goal thereJun 03 14:19
su_vmaintainable code not?Jun 03 14:19
bryceunfortunately this looks like a case where the easy solution is the choice between two regressionsJun 03 14:19
su_vif there's a different code path in inkscape, to get the fonts, glyphs, glyph paths and all the important metrics directly from Windows  ...)Jun 03 14:20
brycemaintainability is of course always important but late in the release stability and least-disruption tends to trump...Jun 03 14:20
su_v(that code path exists AFAIU, but is not used because the define was commented out to use it)Jun 03 14:20
ScislaCThis was something I was hoping OS specific resource master JonCruz might chime in on.Jun 03 14:21
su_vonce Inkscape switches to native GTK+ backend on OS X, there will be the same question there ...Jun 03 14:21
ScislaCthat should probably be platform rather than OSJun 03 14:21
brycefor issues that are platform specific like this one, I'm also not opposed to removing them as blockers for the initial release, and let package managers handle patching the fixes post-release.Jun 03 14:22
brycethough I know no one except me will be happy with that arrangement ;-)Jun 03 14:22
su_v(keep using pango with freetype and fontconfig for Inkscape's font & text; or write custom code to support coretext)Jun 03 14:22
su_vbryce: packagers can't "fix" that unless developers fixed it firstJun 03 14:22
su_vpackagers would need a tested patchJun 03 14:22
*ScislaC nodsJun 03 14:23
su_vit's not how the stuff is packaged - this is about code in inkscapeJun 03 14:23
brycesu_v, no I mean once it's fixed in trunk they could go back and do a package release with the patch added inJun 03 14:23
JonCruzwe might be hitting up against the bad early assumption that all resources are in a single location that can be hard coded at build timeJun 03 14:23
brycebut there's time still to wait for this to get a proper fixJun 03 14:24
su_vcurrently, inkscape uses freetype & fontconfig on all platforms to retrieve font & glyph information; fontconfig on non-linux does know nothing about font managers which work with the native font backendJun 03 14:24
brycesu_v, would you be willing to keep an eye on 1416674?  If we don't hear from alvin in say a week or so, ping me and ScislaC so we can decide on a course of actionJun 03 14:25
su_vbryce: I'm not a Windows user myself, and probably care less about that platform than you ;)Jun 03 14:25
brycesu_v, also if there's someone other than alvin that might be available to work on fixing it better, that would be good to knowJun 03 14:25
brycesu_v, hah fair enough I guessJun 03 14:26
bryceyet more reasons to punt to post-release I supposeJun 03 14:26
su_vI'm not aware of an active developer who's familiar with Inkscape's custom code in libnrtype to get what is needed from the Windows OS for layout, shaping, font metrics ...Jun 03 14:26
ScislaCSame hereJun 03 14:27
brycehrmJun 03 14:27
brycesu_v, ScislaC in that case what do you two think if we just move it to Known Issues?Jun 03 14:28
bryceusers that are particularly bothered by it can manually revert the patch to get the old functionality backJun 03 14:28
bryceand maybe one of them will care enough to turn into an active Inkscape windows developerJun 03 14:28
ScislaCI would be okay with that if the other two blockers get fixed first, otherwise I'd like to keep it on the radar.Jun 03 14:28
brycealright, so next I'm looking at 1389723Jun 03 14:29
bryceI was worried we'd have bugs like this one...Jun 03 14:29
su_vthis seems to be one of the larger chunks: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/trunk/view/head:/src/libnrtype/FontInstance.cpp#L381Jun 03 14:29
su_v(of code within #ifdef USE_PANGO_WIN32 )Jun 03 14:29
su_v>> 1389723Jun 03 14:30
InkBotBug #1389723: "Documents created before experimental branch merge get scaled by 90/96"Jun 03 14:30
InkBothttps://launchpad.net/bugs/1389723Jun 03 14:30
ScislaCbryce: Part of the problem is that you're talking very low tech skill users in general hit by that font bug. Crafters/scrapbookers aren't generally also into programming. ;)Jun 03 14:30
bryceScislaC, fortunately it only takes one person that happens to be an outlier for that group ;-)Jun 03 14:31
su_vcan't comment on the current state of 1389723 (the discussion is rather dated, and in parts was retracted IIRC)Jun 03 14:31
bryceScislaC, but I agree, lack of open source talent on the Windows side is a major hinderence for these kinds of bugsJun 03 14:32
su_vI filed a separate report about one particular issue exposed by the change (which I consider a blocker personally, but likely isn't, considering the apparent urgency to get 0.92 out ASAP)Jun 03 14:32
ScislaCsu_v: do you recall the bug?Jun 03 14:33
brycejabiertxof_ posted a converter, that's awesomeJun 03 14:33
su_vScislaC: !bug 1508400Jun 03 14:33
InkBotBug #1508400: "inkex.py: support arbitrary (but uniform) document scale (0.92)"Jun 03 14:33
InkBothttps://launchpad.net/bugs/1508400Jun 03 14:33
jabiertxof_thanks bryceJun 03 14:34
su_vbryce: IIRC there was no concensus on how to deal with the changed resolutionJun 03 14:34
brycethe good news is the 1389723 issue is a one-time thing.  The need for ongoing support for pre-0.91 documents is going to diminish with time.Jun 03 14:34
su_vin theory, inkscape does handle the old files ok, but not in all cases (see the one about inkex.py and scale)Jun 03 14:35
su_vbryce: trouble is they won't disappearJun 03 14:35
su_vthey are everywhereJun 03 14:35
bryceDo we version inkscape .svg files?  Revving that version and then issuing warnings on earlier versioned documents might be a viable bandaidJun 03 14:35
su_vnoJun 03 14:35
su_vinkscape SVG files are not versioned.Jun 03 14:35
brycehrmJun 03 14:35
su_vwe can't handle a automatic one-time conversion (scaling)Jun 03 14:35
su_vthe 'inkscape:version' attribute of SVGRoot is updated on load - it only conveys which Inkscape version was used the last time the file was savedJun 03 14:36
bryce   inkscape:version="0.91 r13725"Jun 03 14:37
bryceoh, hmmJun 03 14:37
brycewhat about adding an inkscape:version_created or something?Jun 03 14:38
su_vit does not convey information about which drawing scale the document is based on, and whether that's an intentional choice, or just a legacy document (and the user doesn't care)Jun 03 14:38
brycesu_v, well what do you think the next step should be for this bug?Jun 03 14:38
su_vthere likely will be more versioning issues ahead with the y-axis switchJun 03 14:38
jabiertxof_or adding inkscape:svg_dpiJun 03 14:38
su_v(which requires to switch guides and grids to SVG coordinates instead of desktop coordinates)Jun 03 14:39
bryce(I suppose I should continue reading the rest of the bug comments first...)Jun 03 14:39
su_vI doubt that introducing semi-versioned inkscape SVG file format under time pressure to get 0.92 out will help with the pending changes for Inkscape 1.0 (y-axis)Jun 03 14:39
su_vbryce: talk with Tavmjong about what was discussed in the commentsJun 03 14:40
su_vIIRC it was not decided whether actually re-scaling the document content instead of relying on what is denoted via attributes on SVGRoot is better (or expected)Jun 03 14:41
su_vit differs on use cases, tooJun 03 14:41
brycejabiertxof_, your comment #67 sounds like you withdrew the converter from trunk, is that still correct?Jun 03 14:43
brycesu_v, yeah looks like Tav might be helpful on this bugJun 03 14:43
jabiertxof_yes, I remove it because no decission about it and put on the website extensions page on website waiting for a more clear decissionJun 03 14:44
su_vjabiertxof_: off-topic (just a reminder for later) - before you quit tonight, can I ask you a quick question?Jun 03 14:45
jabiertxof_maybe I can add a checkbosx to select transform elements or Viewbox on svgRootJun 03 14:45
jabiertxof_yes of corse su_v!Jun 03 14:46
jabiertxof_courseJun 03 14:46
ScislaCUnfortunately, I need to get running. Have a great rest of your day everyone!Jun 03 14:46
brycealright, well given this bug is a legacy file issue and thus won't be a regression for newly created documents, some bandaid involving jabier's tool and a corresponding warning dialog for affected files could be a plan AJun 03 14:47
su_vmost users will work with files created with 0.91Jun 03 14:47
jabiertxof_Thanks ScislaC. Thanks for your time in this stage.Jun 03 14:47
su_vor even 0.48 (given that some linux distros haven't upgraded to 0.91)Jun 03 14:48
jabiertxof_there is units on 0.91 or 0.48 inside the svg?Jun 03 14:49
jabiertxof_in any placeJun 03 14:49
jabiertxof_alwaysJun 03 14:49
su_vjabiertxof_: fiels based on the default template have them in SVGRoot width, heightJun 03 14:49
su_vfiles*Jun 03 14:49
su_vwidth, height in mm; viewBox in CSS PixelsJun 03 14:50
jabiertxof_im thinking in search on open for something never happends on 0.92Jun 03 14:50
su_v(the default template in 0.91)Jun 03 14:50
su_vin 0.48 and earlier, there's no viewBoxJun 03 14:50
jabiertxof_we can check for:Jun 03 14:50
jabiertxof_if no viewbox ot there is units on itJun 03 14:51
su_vcurrently, 0.92pre adds a viewBox if none is present (I don't like that because it changes a whole lot more within the file)Jun 03 14:51
jabiertxof_suggest a conversionJun 03 14:51
su_vthat's another open question which would need to be discussed before a new stable release is outJun 03 14:51
su_v(whether or not to enforce a viewBox attribute if the original file - for whatever reason - has none)Jun 03 14:52
jabiertxof_there is a option to make a viewbox as disabled?Jun 03 14:52
su_v?Jun 03 14:52
su_vhow would you disable a SVG attribute that is valid?Jun 03 14:53
bryceok, I need to go soon but taking a quick look at 1571192Jun 03 14:53
jabiertxof_something in the data inside never affect to contentJun 03 14:53
jabiertxof_for example width 100%Jun 03 14:53
brycewin64 so sounds like another platform-specific issueJun 03 14:53
jabiertxof_not handled by INkscape I thinkJun 03 14:53
bryce>> 1571192Jun 03 14:54
InkBotBug #1571192: "Severe performance regression"Jun 03 14:54
InkBothttps://launchpad.net/bugs/1571192Jun 03 14:54
su_vIMHO that's the real blocker for 0.92Jun 03 14:54
brycekk is assigned but not sure that he's actively looking at itJun 03 14:54
su_vor one of the major ones affected all platforms and backends GTK2 runs onJun 03 14:55
su_vwe talked about it last time (a month ago)Jun 03 14:55
su_vI don't know how much time he has to work on it ...Jun 03 14:55
su_v*free timeJun 03 14:55
su_vhttps://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35127705/Jun 03 14:56
bryceregression between r14762 and r14851 apparently?Jun 03 14:56
bryce"I assume it is a regression caused by the "sp_canvas" fixes done by Krzysztof KosiƄski during the Hackfest."Jun 03 14:57
su_vI don't know how it exposes on Windows, but with my local builds, I had similar reactions like EduardJun 03 14:57
su_vI can narrow down the revision, if neededJun 03 14:58
su_vit clearly was one of the changes during the hackfestJun 03 14:58
brycesu_v, that would be great, thanksJun 03 14:59
su_v(immediately noticeable for anyone who tested the changes at the time)Jun 03 14:59
bryceI don't know what the sp_canvas changes were fixing, but if it wasn't too severe of an issue then reverting that change might be one option to consider.  Or conditionalize the fix to not apply with win64 or somethingJun 03 14:59
jabiertxof_or with GTK2?Jun 03 15:00
brycejabiertxof_, right, yeahJun 03 15:00
su_vsp_canvas was refactored to address flickering with GTK3Jun 03 15:00
bryceoh yeahJun 03 15:00
su_va side-effect of those changes (may) negatively affect GTK2Jun 03 15:00
su_v(my observations are that it varies depending on the theme used - or how themes style spinboxes ...)Jun 03 15:01
su_vbut that's only for one part of the reported regressions (I personally don't observe issues while panning, while others do)Jun 03 15:01
brycegiven that gtk3 still isn't really solid, I suppose pushing that flickering fix to post 0.92 might be less disruptiveJun 03 15:02
jabiertxof_I agreeJun 03 15:02
bryceI don't know how long we plan to continue supporting gtk2 but that'd give us more time at leastJun 03 15:02
jabiertxof_we speack at hackfes 0.93 not have GTK2 verJun 03 15:03
jabiertxof_ITs only GTK3Jun 03 15:03
jabiertxof_and by this way remove hundred of conditional commentsJun 03 15:03
jabiertxof_Also I lisen about C++11 but dont know too much about thisJun 03 15:04
su_vjabiertxof_: but there will be new ones, differing GTK3 versions :/Jun 03 15:04
bryceright, so if gtk2 is pending removal for 0.93 anyway, maybe just postpone the fix and hobble on with gtk2 for one last releaseJun 03 15:05
bryceok, I need to skedaddle, thanks all!Jun 03 15:05
su_v3.20 changed a lot wrt styling, and also between earlier 3.x releases there are incompatibilities, and deprecated stuffJun 03 15:05
jabiertxof_Sure we need a starting point for 0.93Jun 03 15:06
jabiertxof_0.93/GTK3Jun 03 15:06
su_vjabiertxof_: got a minute for an unrelated question now?Jun 03 15:06
jabiertxof_yesJun 03 15:06
su_vit's about a attribute in namedviewJun 03 15:07
su_v"inkscape:locked"Jun 03 15:07
jabiertxof_okJun 03 15:07
su_vI know the attribute is really used per guideJun 03 15:07
su_vbut in https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/trunk/revision/14500.1.8 you add it to namedview tooJun 03 15:08
su_vwhy? is this a "legacy" setting?Jun 03 15:08
su_vsee https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/trunk/annotate/head:/src/sp-namedview.cpp#L1101Jun 03 15:09
jabiertxof_no i think is a bug I want lockgides oneJun 03 15:09
su_vit's added as soon as I create a guide, and is always 'false' (the attribute in namedview)Jun 03 15:09
su_vokJun 03 15:09
su_vAFAICT it does not cause harm - I noticed it because I'm trying to gather information on as many attributes for namedview as possible (for a procedural template)Jun 03 15:10
jabiertxof_I try a deeper lock theis weekend and remove it if is not used by aninthing not related to guidesJun 03 15:10
jabiertxof_thanks for the input su_vJun 03 15:10
su_vokJun 03 15:10
su_vthank youJun 03 15:10
jabiertxof_you are welcomeJun 03 15:11
Title: Board Meeting - June 3, 2016
Text Format: IRC logs
License: CC-BY-SA

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