Inkscape Board Meeting Transcript for Friday, 2019-06-07

inkchatbot<Tav> ****** Board Meeting in 2 minutes *******Jun 07 09:59
bryce== Inkscape Board Meeting ==Jun 07 09:59
inkchatbot<Moini> (those were quick two minutes)Jun 07 09:59
bryceAgenda:Jun 07 10:00
bryce-------Jun 07 10:00
bryce    * CoC: escalation point person neededJun 07 10:00
bryce    * Hackfest debrief [http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2019/ LGM 2019]Jun 07 10:00
bryce    * InfrastructureJun 07 10:00
bryce    ** mailing list migration off SourceForgeJun 07 10:00
bryce    ** Wiki migration off OSUOSLJun 07 10:00
inkchatbot<NPJ2000> (I can adjust the clocks by that much, let me shift the satellites. One moment.)Jun 07 10:00
bryce    * GSoCJun 07 10:00
*tedg wavesJun 07 10:00
TavmjongI just sent some notes about the hackfest to the board mailing list.Jun 07 10:00
Mco/Jun 07 10:00
bryce    * Other BusinessJun 07 10:00
bryce    ** Forums:  Should a job postings area be included?Jun 07 10:00
bryce Jun 07 10:00
inkchatbot<c.rogers> Ooo, this is gonna be a good meeting. :)Jun 07 10:01
inkchatbot<doctormo> HelloJun 07 10:01
tedgIf people are getting excited about meetings we're perhaps doing it wrong ;-)Jun 07 10:01
brycetedg, crogers, Tavmjong, Mv, doctormo, scislac - ping, meeting timeJun 07 10:01
brycescislac joined the mailing list, but maybe he's unavailableJun 07 10:02
bryceMc, sorry not MvJun 07 10:02
inkchatbot<doctormo> PongJun 07 10:02
TavmjongpongJun 07 10:02
inkchatbot<doctormo> PongJun 07 10:02
inkchatbot<doctormo> PongJun 07 10:02
bryce=== CoC: escalation point person needed ===Jun 07 10:02
inkchatbot<doctormo> PongJun 07 10:02
brycekk had been point person for this when we started but has stepped down from that role so we need a replacementJun 07 10:03
crogersI'll volunteerJun 07 10:03
brycemost likely it's a no-work position, but if there ever is a problem, it's an important oneJun 07 10:03
brycehah that was easyJun 07 10:03
Mcdo we vote ? ^^Jun 07 10:03
crogersHahaJun 07 10:03
brycedoes anyone else wish to be considered?Jun 07 10:04
bryceor, does anyone think we should look more broadly than board members, or have other reservations to mention?Jun 07 10:04
Mcwe could look more broadly than boardJun 07 10:04
crogersI'd like to mention that when I'm moderating, I'm much better than when in personal conflict. ;)Jun 07 10:05
inkchatbot<doctormo> I agree, broadness is importantJun 07 10:05
tedgI think we're small enough that we don't need a big process.Jun 07 10:05
tedgWe don't have that many folks to pull from 🙂Jun 07 10:05
inkchatbot<Moini> Wasn't there a request on the lists already?Jun 07 10:06
inkchatbot<Moini> And that's why it was escalated?Jun 07 10:06
bryceMoini, yesJun 07 10:06
crogersI will not be offended if people honestly don't want me to moderate. :)Jun 07 10:07
inkchatbot<Moini> As long as availability is not an issue, I'm super happy that there's a volunteer.Jun 07 10:07
bryceone benefit of it being a board member is that it'll be easier to track that they're active.  An external person might go silent and we may never noticeJun 07 10:07
crogersHow does it currently work, via email?Jun 07 10:08
inkchatbot<Moini> Yes, there was an email address given in the CoC, I thinkJun 07 10:09
brycecrogers, I believe we listed kk's contact email, yesJun 07 10:09
inkchatbot<Moini> For the actual solving, you can use whatever medium makes most sense.Jun 07 10:09
inkchatbot<jabiertxof> Hi all, thanks @c.rogers Jun 07 10:12
bryceMc, doctormo can you share more of your thoughts?Jun 07 10:12
inkchatbot<doctormo> Is there any sort of cross project affiliation we can do? Have chris do coc on a sister project and visaversa?Jun 07 10:12
inkchatbot<doctormo> Is there any sort of cross project affiliation we can do? Have chris do coc on a sister project and visaversa?Jun 07 10:12
TavmjongDo we want to make a decision now? I'm happy to let crogers be the contact (especially after his comment).Jun 07 10:13
crogersI like to help community members. I would personally vote for Doc, but since he's not volunteering, I'll do my best to channel my inner doc. :)Jun 07 10:13
McI'm happy to let crogers do it, if he has enough time to do itJun 07 10:13
inkchatbot<doctormo> Damn phone app, moved to desktop.Jun 07 10:13
crogersShould not be a problem. If I can't resolve the issue, I'll poke others around for assistance.Jun 07 10:14
bryceTavmjong, I would like to have a decision in hand, and would have no problem with any board member in this roleJun 07 10:14
inkchatbot<doctormo> I'm happy to have @c.rogers do it, he's a good person.Jun 07 10:14
crogersAwe, thanks everyone. <3Jun 07 10:14
bryceI suspect it's less of a time commitment and more a commitment to be available at short notice, and crogers has been strong at thatJun 07 10:15
bryceok, crogers thanks for volunteering, congrats and good luck :-)Jun 07 10:15
bryceMoini, can you help get crogers' preferred email listed in the CoC?Jun 07 10:16
inkchatbot<Moini> Yep.Jun 07 10:16
crogersThanks! I'll do my best, with the spirit of our community and togetherness at heart.Jun 07 10:16
McwooJun 07 10:16
bryce=== Hackfest/LGM debrief ===Jun 07 10:16
inkchatbot<Moini> crogers, will you send me an email with the address you want listed?Jun 07 10:17
brycefolks that attended, mind debriefing?  (tav, thanks for the report, looking at it now)Jun 07 10:17
McIt was great !Jun 07 10:17
crogersis it better to set up a redirect from moderation@inkscape.org? This way if the person changes in the future the email still goes to the right place?Jun 07 10:17
inkchatbot<Moini> Sounds worth the effort to me. bryce , would that be possible?Jun 07 10:18
Mcshould beJun 07 10:18
brycecrogers, when we discussed this previously we thought it would be important it be a direct line to a real person, so there's no doubt who is going to see the private communicationJun 07 10:18
TavmjongI agree with Mc! We had a real good turn out and lots of great discussions (both during the hackfest and during LGM).Jun 07 10:18
crogersI'm just thinking about forums etc. People might ask for an email address. If there's one we can update on the backend, all the better.Jun 07 10:18
TavmjongWe overspent the dinner budget by a small amount but I don't think the snack budget was used up.Jun 07 10:19
brycebut yes, redirects are possible via OSUOSL, or alternatively a private mailing list could be established.  Whatever you guys prefer.Jun 07 10:19
crogersI don't mind my name being used as moderator.Jun 07 10:20
crogersOr my email really.Jun 07 10:20
crogersJust thinking about what's most useful.Jun 07 10:20
crogersAlso my email is not very official looking vs an inkscape.org one.Jun 07 10:20
Mcwe spent some time discussing with Raph Levien about rendering, splines, and other topics, which were really interestingJun 07 10:20
bryce(updating the CoC doc when emails change is probably going to be less involved than updating a redirect through osuosl fwiw)Jun 07 10:20
bryceMc, oh cool that Raph was thereJun 07 10:21
bryceat LGM I take it?Jun 07 10:21
McyesJun 07 10:21
Mchopefully some day in the future we can think about a gpu rendererJun 07 10:21
bryceif we have hackfests in europe in the future we should make an effort to invite himJun 07 10:21
tedgGTK4 is changing to make a GPU renderer much easier.Jun 07 10:22
TavmjongRaph and I came up with an idea on how to integrate the splines into Inkscape. Should be fairly easy (once his code is ready).Jun 07 10:22
tedgThey're changing their rendering model to support it.Jun 07 10:22
Mcand I have discussed with freifarbe and krita people, and I have some ideas about color-managed stuffJun 07 10:22
crogersAwesome. Sounds super productive.Jun 07 10:22
McI have so much things to do now ^^Jun 07 10:23
crogersHahaha! Awesome!Jun 07 10:23
TavmjongOne problem with using the GPU is doing filters where a pixel depends on values of other pixels (e.g. blur).Jun 07 10:23
*Mc needs internsJun 07 10:23
tedgYes, the filters would all have to be shaders.Jun 07 10:24
brycetedg, unless they're specifically targeting SVG with their GPU rendering work, that may not be as useful as it might sound.Jun 07 10:24
tedgbryce: well it means that we can be a compatible widget in their framework and still be GPU focused. Not that they'd implement the canvas itself.Jun 07 10:24
tedgRight now you'd kinda have to step outside of GTK to do that.Jun 07 10:25
TavmjongWould be interesting to know of the NVIDIA SVG rendering that the demonstrated a few years ago supported filters.Jun 07 10:25
bryceah I seeJun 07 10:25
Tavmjongs/the/they/Jun 07 10:25
bryceblur is a pretty fundamental thing to do with GPU so it'd be surprising if they don'tJun 07 10:26
bryceand yeah, a lot of this would actually be writing of good 2d vector shadersJun 07 10:27
bryceTavmjong, glad to see in your write up thoughts on fundraising.  we can follow up on some of those itemsJun 07 10:27
TavmjongRaph had an idea on how to speed up gaussian blurs over large areas... basically doing the blur using clumps of pixels.Jun 07 10:28
brycesounds like it fits well with what I talked with bradley about in pasadena.Jun 07 10:28
TavmjongBoth Krita and Gimp are doing much better at fund raising than we are.Jun 07 10:28
bryceyesJun 07 10:28
bryce:-/Jun 07 10:28
inkchatbot<doctormo> HmmJun 07 10:29
brycelike you mentioned, the nofollow rule we adopted really dried up sponsorshipsJun 07 10:29
crogersI think if you tell folks via crowdfunding campaign that we are working on hotbutton requests, the money would pour in.Jun 07 10:29
brycewe did get one new gold sponsor, but it's stuck in limbo waiting on an invoice from sfc.  I don't know what has taken so long, i've spoken about it in person with bradley and by phone with karen twice.Jun 07 10:30
crogersEspecially thinks like CMYK support, multipage, etc.Jun 07 10:30
brycehonestly I think we could raise a lot with even just a general purpose fundraiser.Jun 07 10:30
McdunnoJun 07 10:30
bryceI started writing one up, I'll dig up the text.  Basically the ask is for recurring $10/monthly commitments -- "$10 for 1.0"Jun 07 10:31
crogersIt would be more effective if there are deliverables.Jun 07 10:31
TavmjongTo do a general purpose fundraiser we still need to have a good plan on what we are using the funds for.Jun 07 10:31
crogersthat's how Krita does it.Jun 07 10:31
crogersAlso how Blender does it.Jun 07 10:32
crogersNo idea about GIMP.Jun 07 10:32
TavmjongI liked Gimp's use of funds to provide equipment to developers. Jabier's laptop takes 5 minutes to recompile Inkscape with just one line of code change. Think about how much more he could do if he had a faster machine.Jun 07 10:32
brycegeneral purpose ask https://gitlab.com/inkscape/vectors/content/blob/master/articles/Funding%20General%20Purpose%20Ask/funding_general_purpose_ask_2019.mdJun 07 10:33
bryceI agree that targeted fundraisers are a great idea, and it makes sense that they may pull in money better, however there is one big catch - they're a LOT more work to put togetherJun 07 10:34
brycehaving a deliverable means you have procedures in place for tracking tasks, validating work effort, committing to due dates, or whatnotJun 07 10:35
brycewhereas a general fundraiser we can say what our goals are, but it doesn't necessitate a lot of overheadJun 07 10:35
brycealso, the two are not mutually exclusiveJun 07 10:35
brycein fact having a general fundraiser in place makes additional fundraising efforts, including calls for sponsors and calls for specific development efforts, a bit easier since you can reference the general oneJun 07 10:36
brycebut the plain fact is we are very short on manpower to manage fundraising efforts at all.  Honestly I think a general fundraiser is all we can really handle right now, but I think we could do it pretty well and it should bring in a good amount.Jun 07 10:37
inkchatbot<doctormo> I refer back to our decision not to use Patreon. I think we could have a sizable monthly income by now.Jun 07 10:37
crogersIt would be good to include some low-hanging fruit, even as token deliverables.Jun 07 10:38
inkchatbot<doctormo> Also back to the charging for the windows build in the store. We could have had a siazable income by now.Jun 07 10:38
TavmjongThe Krita people are pulling in $12000 a month by charging $9.99 for it on the Windows and Steam stores.Jun 07 10:38
bryceok sorry for the wall of text.  This is something I put quite a bit of work into the past several months and have lots of thoughtsJun 07 10:38
TavmjongWe discussed charging $19.99 for Inkscape on the Windows store.Jun 07 10:38
bryceTavmjong, yeahJun 07 10:38
tedgI think that if we get the OSX build in good shape the Mac Store would be good too...Jun 07 10:39
crogersMmm, dunno about 19.99 Jun 07 10:39
bryceI had talked with them in Pasadena and got similar numbers.  And they think we have a much larger base than they do, so should be able to pull in much moreJun 07 10:39
TavmjongMac store might need dealing with licensing issues...Jun 07 10:39
crogersthink we should go with Krita's example.Jun 07 10:39
Mc@doctormo we ill change thatJun 07 10:39
Mcand I also think we should do an unified patreon for inkscapeJun 07 10:40
inkchatbot<doctormo> +1 McJun 07 10:40
bryceI've also spoken with the homebrew folks about a mac downloadsJun 07 10:40
brycebradley put me in contact with them.  They don't have something like the windows store for charging $$, but suggested that if we displayed a one-time interstitial with a donation ask, that would fit their plans.  I wasn't sure what people would think of that, so haven't brought it up, but sounds like it may be what others have doneJun 07 10:42
ede123I can't believe that you constantly think it's fine to charge for the WIndows store... What would you do if people started charging for downloads in your package manager?Jun 07 10:42
crogersswitch to Linux? ;)Jun 07 10:43
bryceanother thing I don't know how people would feel about, but an advertising company contacted us to show ads on our website, and suggested it could be up to $3000/mo.  I haven't followed up on it, but could look into it more if there was interestJun 07 10:43
ede123I meant if your Linux package manager started charging you!Jun 07 10:43
crogersI have paid for Ardour in the past.Jun 07 10:43
ede123There's absolutely no difference!Jun 07 10:43
inkchatbot<doctormo> @ ede123  I would support charging on Linux (esp Ubuntu store)Jun 07 10:44
crogersI think 19 bucks is a bit high.Jun 07 10:45
inkchatbot<doctormo> I've supported charging in the Android Store, supported charging in the Ubuntu Store (and failed to get Canonical to move on the issue) and supported charging in the Windows store.Jun 07 10:45
crogersI'd pay it, but I don't know who else would.Jun 07 10:45
brycealright, well for now all very good ideas and thinking, we should plan to follow up on some of them and dig in more.Jun 07 10:46
ede123@doctormo and how do you justify making the easiest source (which the users who don't know better will use) paid? If it was a "pay what you want" model it would be fine, but not a fixed sumJun 07 10:46
bryceanything else to note from the hackfest/lgm event?Jun 07 10:46
ede123it feels so very wrong (especially for "free" software)Jun 07 10:46
crogersI think we should try more fundraising activities before we start charging for downloads.Jun 07 10:46
tedgI'd also be happy having to uploads "Inkscape" and "Inkscape (Donation Edition) -- Oh, you already donated online, use this link"Jun 07 10:46
inkchatbot<doctormo> @ ede123  I'd support that too, better even.Jun 07 10:46
inkchatbot<doctormo> @ ede123  The problem is that it's free as in speech, not free as in beer and speech is expensive.Jun 07 10:47
bryceperhaps the interstitial approach would better fit ede123's concerns.  Plus it could work on all platforms.Jun 07 10:47
crogersYea, it feels better to pay what you want.Jun 07 10:48
inkchatbot<RdH> I don't recall what it was, but I have seen software in an app store that explicitly stated "you can get it for free on our website, but buy this version for 2,49 to support us".Jun 07 10:48
crogersThat way we are not hitting our user base who maybe can't afford it, or who are kids who don't make any money yet.Jun 07 10:48
inkchatbot<jabiertxof> I also think 19 is high specialy we can get more sells than ktritaJun 07 10:48
inkchatbot<jabiertxof> where is Tav LGM review?Jun 07 10:49
brycegiven what Adobe charges (annually!) $20 doesn't seem exorbitant, but I'm no pricerJun 07 10:49
inkchatbot<NPJ2000> Ahem.Jun 07 10:50
inkchatbot<jabiertxof> Thanks Tav for mention my PC but is not my working PC I work in desktop ones, since 2 years I have a semi decent DesktopJun 07 10:50
brycejabierxof, board mailing listJun 07 10:50
inkchatbot<jabiertxof> sorryJun 07 10:50
inkchatbot<doctormo> :-)Jun 07 10:50
inkchatbot<doctormo> bryce: should we have an actual wtf meeting about this issue? We seem to be all over the place.Jun 07 10:50
brycedoctomo for fundraising?  yes I think that sounds like a good ideaJun 07 10:51
TavmjongWe were told that the Windows store does not allow you to have a redirect to a free version... but that we could refer to our homepage which has a free windows download.Jun 07 10:51
inkchatbot<doctormo> OK, @ ede123  I think it's important to do this when you're available.Jun 07 10:51
brycesince we're near the hour, and I do need to go, let's jump on to other business, there's one item brynn wanted discussedJun 07 10:52
bryce=== Other Business ===Jun 07 10:52
bryceForums:  Should a job postings area be included?Jun 07 10:52
brycebrynn couldn't be here but emailed me her thoughts, so I'll just quote her words:Jun 07 10:53
bryce"""Jun 07 10:53
bryce      For the jobs board, I guess I've heard a request for it, once everyJun 07 10:53
brycecouple of years.  And the board on Inkscape Community only has a handful ofJun 07 10:53
brycepostings over 6 years.  Still, I think having one makes a statement aboutJun 07 10:53
bryceour project's and community's professionalism.  (I.e. we supportJun 07 10:53
bryceprofessionals using Inkscape.)  As far as liability, to me, as long as weJun 07 10:53
brycedisclaim any liability in the rules (either write it into the officialJun 07 10:53
brycerules, and/or post the rules in a sticky topic) it can't pose any threat toJun 07 10:53
brycethe community.Jun 07 10:53
bryce"""Jun 07 10:53
bryceI gather the concept would be for artists/designers offering services, or people needing to hire the same.  Something like that?Jun 07 10:54
crogersYea, agreed.Jun 07 10:54
ede123only danger I see is that professionals not using Inkscape could use it just as well (having the potential opposite effect of what brynn suggests)Jun 07 10:54
tedgIf it's on the forum replies would potentially be negative if someone didn't use Inkscape. Not sure folks would want to risk that.Jun 07 10:55
brycesounds like we maybe would need more definition on what would be allowed vs. not, but for now is there any concern against it conceptually?  Is it crossing any lines we don't want to cross?Jun 07 10:57
bryce(personally, I like the idea of stimulating economics around Inkscape and helping folks find work, as long as it doesn't become a burden on moderators)Jun 07 10:58
brycewhat do you guys think if we give a thumbs' up to go ahead and set it up provisionally, and plan to follow up in a few months to see how it's developed and then vote on yea/nay at that point to keep or drop it?Jun 07 11:00
ede123we can always add rules (might burden moderators) or pull the plug if issues arise...Jun 07 11:01
inkchatbot<Moini> I think the forum opening was set to August,Jun 07 11:01
tedg👍Jun 07 11:01
inkchatbot<Moini> So 'a few months' might be too short.Jun 07 11:01
bryceok, so maybe review in Nov/Dec?Jun 07 11:01
brycealright sounds like we have time, we can discuss more next meetingJun 07 11:02
brycethanks allJun 07 11:02
bryce== EOM ==Jun 07 11:02
*tedg wavesJun 07 11:03

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