Hi, new guy here.

Recently I've been trying various trials of different sketching programs. sketchbook pro, manga studio, inkscape being a few. Out of all the ones I tried two stood out. Inkscape for its ability to do vector drawing and sketchbook pro for it's user interface.

I realize it might be a little late in the game to suggest major changes to the UI, but if you haven't checked out sketchbook's UI then you really should.

I'm fairly new to sketching programs, since most of my experience is with photoshop. So I'm fairly new to this whole project. The reason I'm suggesting you take a look at sketchbook is because they have an ingenius UI that put all the most commonly used sketching tools in one single interface they call a lagoon. While each of the different interfaces can be expanded according to your needs, its not necessary to clutter up your workspace with the UI they have. In addition, all of the UI's from the programs I tried, were more or less modeled after Photoshop, even so, they were still a bit clunky to use even though they are something I'm familiar with.

On the other hand, the Sketchbook pro UI was so simple to pick up and makes changes between tool-sets so quick and easy that it hardly causes any interruption to your work-flow.

If you can check out a trial version and see the UI and possibly pick up some ideas from it, I feel it would make inkscape so much faster and easier to use.
Thanks for such a great tool, I hope to see this project progress, because even though at this point I like sketchbook pro for its ease of use, I already see the superiority of inkscape for its vector capabilities alone.

Welcome to the forum!
Well, you're right, it's rather late in the game to ask for changes in the interface. The reason that Inkscape's interface is different from other programs, is because Inkscape is a unique program, and not modelled after any other program. While many sketch artists use Inkscape, it's not primarily a sketching program. It is quite a complex program, all of whose features are not evident, at a glance. Inkscape is not just a vector capable program, it's a hard core fully featured vector program (with a couple of raster features included). There are many highly technical features, as well as many simple, and common features to other graphics programs; which overlap among many, many different softwares and professions and fields of endeavor.

A lot of sketch artists who use Inkscape, like to use a graphics tablet. If you're not familiar with graphics tablets, you might want to look into it. I doubt if it will make it "like Sketchbook Pro" but it might make make up for what you see as insufficiencies in the Inkscape interface.

Also, if you like sketching, you might want to look into a graphics program called Alchemy. It's really fun! http://al.chemy.org/

And another quick note -- I noticed that you posted this in the Feedback forum. Actually this is primarily a user forum. While some developers visit from time to time, the best place to make a formal request for features or report bugs, is at Launchpad https://launchpad.net/inkscape. So I'll move this topic to Inkscape Ideas subforum. Here's more info on requesting new features: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=286

brynn wrote:The reason that Inkscape's interface is different from other programs, is because Inkscape is a unique program, and not modelled after any other program.

This is a bad reason.
Looks like the very same explanations gimp dev give when someone criticize the UI.
Being unique for being unique is just plain stupid.
Being different to be better is ok.
If we can't do better then do it the same way as major software.
We lack a photoshop/illustrator couple on Linux (unified shortcuts/dialog/terms)

brynn wrote: I doubt if it will make it "like Sketchbook Pro" but it might make make up for what you see as insufficiencies in the Inkscape interface.

no theming.
poor gradient(list) management.
is the very same as kick one out.
when you have drawn something with you can't change your mind and apply different settings to the path
+ everything in the roadmap and the blueprint (filter designer)

While I agree that the UI can use some refinement, the main purpose of Inkscape is to create SVG files. This imposes limitations on Inkscape. For example, SVG does not (yet) have layers. Inkscape uses groups to emulate layers but this can have unexpected behaviour. I'm willing to put up with an awkward UI as long as I get SVG files.

brynn wrote: The reason that Inkscape's interface is different from other programs, is because Inkscape is a unique program, and not modelled after any other program.

It may not be modeled after a specific program, however, it does contain the same iconograpghy and layout. That is why I could pick up on the interface even though my experience is with photoshop so no problem there,

brynn wrote: While many sketch artists use Inkscape, it's not primarily a sketching program. It is quite a complex program, all of whose features are not evident, at a glance. Inkscape is not just a vector capable program, it's a hard core fully featured vector program (with a couple of raster features included). There are many highly technical features, as well as many simple, and common features to other graphics programs; which overlap among many, many different softwares and professions and fields of endeavor.

Which is the reason for my interest in this program

brynn wrote: A lot of sketch artists who use Inkscape, like to use a graphics tablet. If you're not familiar with graphics tablets, you might want to look into it. I doubt if it will make it "like Sketchbook Pro" but it might make make up for what you see as insufficiencies in the Inkscape interface.

I agree, I have been using the same intuos 3 for about 10 years now, it does make an enormous difference. And for the record, I haven't notoced any insufficiencies at all.

brynn wrote:Also, if you like sketching, you might want to look into a graphics program called Alchemy. It's really fun! http://al.chemy.org/

Thanks for the tip. I''l check it out, but I really want a vector based program and although I haven't had inkscape that long I really like the way this program is developing. IMHO, Inkscape already blows sketchbook pro out of the water and even gives PS a run for its money, so no problems there. Yet, just because you have an interface that works doesn't mean you stop looking for new ideas. It may not be implemented bfore a 1.0 version comes out, but who knows ....? We're artists right? Dare to dream.

brynn wrote:And another quick note -- I noticed that you posted this in the Feedback forum. Actually this is primarily a user forum. While some developers visit from time to time, the best place to make a formal request for features or report bugs, is at Launchpad https://launchpad.net/inkscape. So I'll move this topic to Inkscape Ideas subforum. Here's more info on requesting new features: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=286

Whoops Well, I thought I was a user, otherwise, why would I want to see improvements to the UI? I get the impression that you think I'm criticizing Inkscape; actually I love it. I have seen some of the work others have done with it and realized that this is exactly the kind of program I'm looking for. After all, PS doesn't have vector capabilities unless your willing to spend another 5-600.00 USD on Illustrator. I have PS2 and can't even afford to upgrade that. So I say to blazes with adobe and their over-priced software.

shawnhcorey wrote:the main purpose of Inkscape is to create SVG files.

Not sure about this statement. If you look the splash screen with all its icons. 50%+ of them don't map (directly) to a svg structure.
If you don't use the xml editor it's difficult to tell it's using svg as an internal "storage" format.

This imposes limitations on Inkscape.

this shouldn't. Or svg is badly designed.
And it is (no perspective, stupid box model, missing gradient modes) Some of them will be hopefully adressed with svg 1.2.

Inkscape uses groups to emulate layers but this can have unexpected behaviour.

which ones ?

I'm willing to put up with an awkward UI as long as I get SVG files.

So we can't get svg output and brilliant UI ?

Why is everyone arguing today?

1. I don't care what's on the splash screen; I'm not drawing that.

2. SVG is not well designed.

3. Groups cannot span layers.

4. Don't know but it's harder to get a brilliant UI when everything in it must be part of a design created by a committee, many of which aren't artists.

shawnhcorey wrote:Why is everyone arguing today?
1. I don't care what's on the splash screen; I'm not drawing that.

it was just to exhibit that
when running the app you're invited to draw freely and you see a complex image.
If inkscape was just a svg editor you'd expected something more classic : a chart or minimalistic image with a message stating that you're launching a svg editor

shawnhcorey wrote:3. Groups cannot span layers.

it's just a matter of terminology for me. Start to call a svg group a "layer" from now on and we're done.

SVG does not have layers. Inkscape uses groups to emulate layers. Therefore all layers are groups but not all groups are layers. Groups can exist in layers but layers are at the top of the hierarchy. There are no layers in a group.

shawnhcorey wrote:SVG does not have layers.

Everywhere in the svg spec where you see group replace it with layer and voilà svg got layers.

shawnhcorey wrote:Groups can exist in layers but layers are at the top of the hierarchy

This is how inkscape organize "data" right now and it. It's a bit like Gimp which had for (too) long only 1 level of layer hile other gfx app have nested (sub)layer for years.
And I bet it won't take long before someone ask for them in inkscape.
Then, layers won't be no more at the top of the hierarchy, they will be the hierarchy.

For me, there's no difference beteen layer and group. They (could) have width,height,offset,opacity,a "blend mode" (which really is a filter).
A layer is just a group you care enough to take time to give it a name.

v1nce wrote:This is how inkscape organize "data" right now and it. It's a bit like Gimp which had for (too) long only 1 level of layer hile other gfx app have nested (sub)layer for years.
And I bet it won't take long before someone ask for them in inkscape.
Then, layers won't be no more at the top of the hierarchy, they will be the hierarchy.

It already exists.

Mathieu147 wrote:It already exists.

? There's no nested layers in inkscape.
(or am I missing something ?)

v1nce wrote:

Mathieu147 wrote:It already exists.

? There's no nested layers in inkscape.
(or am I missing something ?)

True, no nesting of layers. Groups can be nested.

shawnhcorey wrote:True, no nesting of layers. Groups can be nested.

Of course layers can be nested:


What can't be done (with the current implementation of layers as groups with an attribute special to inkscape) is grouping across several layers without losing the layer association (objects can't belong to different groups in different branches of the SVG hierarchy at the same time).

Bonus information: Drag&Drop for the 'Layers…' dialog was just committed in the development branch, which makes layer management easier (one can simply drag&drop layers into other layers, and drag them out from there again to change their sub-level).

~suv wrote:Of course layers can be nested:
Bonus information: Drag&Drop for the 'Layers…' dialog was just committed in the development branch, which makes layer management easier (one can simply drag&drop layers into other layers, and drag them out from there again to change their sub-level).

I don't know why I didn't notice one could nest the layers.
Maybe because it is/was lacking the drag and drop.

Is there any plan to modify the layer UI to allow using a custom filter instead of blend mode ?

v1nce wrote:Is there any plan to modify the layer UI to allow using a custom filter instead of blend mode ?

There are several feature requests filed to have this supported in the GUI.

It is already doable if you accept to use the built-in XML Editor as group/object browser:

1. Create you custom filter effect in the Filter Editor.
2. Open 'Edit > XML Editor…'
3. In the list on the left, select the layer group you want to make use your custom filter effect.
4. Return the focus back to the Filter Editor (make sure to not lose the current selection)
5. Activate your custom filter effect in the list on the left for the current selection (i.e. the layer group)
6. Close the XML Editor, and ***important*** deselect the current selection (using e.g. <esc>, or by clicking on an empty area of the canvas)

Any later edits in the Filter Editor of your custom filter effect will now immediately update for all content on that layer.

Note: if your custom filter effect uses the background image/alpha as input source, change the layer blend mode of a layer (doesn't matter which) to one of the offered blend modes (doesn't matter which one), and then back to 'Normal' again: this will add the necessary attribute to the top-level <svg> node required to "activate" the background as input source for SVG filter effects (also described in the manual).

A slightly different workflow (which involves manually copy&pasting the filter url to the layer style) is described here:
Creating layer effects in Inkscape | Libre Graphics World

~suv wrote:Create you custom filter effect in the Filter Editor...

I tried it another way around.
I searched (ctrl+F) for group with id="layer1" but it didn't find any. Is it "by design" that we can't search for layer (as opposed to group) ?

v1nce wrote:I tried it another way around.
I searched (ctrl+F) for group with id="layer1" but it didn't find any. Is it "by design" that we can't search for layer (as opposed to group) ?

By design. Layers are not selectable items like objects or regular groups (that's the reason why my steps are based on using the built-in XML Editor, which offers access to certain types of objects not selectable or editable in the GUI).

v1nce wrote: is the very same as kick one out.

This seems like one of those things where I might say, "who needs 'diagram connectors'' ? I never use them!
You probably don't use the the way I do, and therefore you think it's the same as
but in fact the pencil creates closed shapes as well as stroked lines, and is indispensable for tracing by hand with a graphic tablet. Just my twopence.

Vlil wrote:

brynn wrote:And another quick note -- I noticed that you posted this in the Feedback forum. Actually this is primarily a user forum. While some developers visit from time to time, the best place to make a formal request for features or report bugs, is at Launchpad https://launchpad.net/inkscape. So I'll move this topic to Inkscape Ideas subforum. Here's more info on requesting new features: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=286

Whoops Well, I thought I was a user, otherwise, why would I want to see improvements to the UI? I get the impression that you think I'm criticizing Inkscape; actually I love it. I have seen some of the work others have done with it and realized that this is exactly the kind of program I'm looking for. After all, PS doesn't have vector capabilities unless your willing to spend another 5-600.00 USD on Illustrator. I have PS2 and can't even afford to upgrade that. So I say to blazes with adobe and their over-priced software.

Oh no, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that developers don't visit here very often, and aren't likely to see your comments and recommendations. I just wanted to make sure you had the means of getting your comments to the people who can act on them (change Inkscape code) (i.e. developers)

No, I didn't think you were criticizing Inkscape, but I was perhaps a bit tired when I responded. We do get this type of message from time to time, and I tried to say as much as possible using as few words as possible. That was probably a poor choice, and I would have been better off waiting until I had a good night's sleep. (Also, the last time we had a message like this, the person was fairly hostile about it, so maybe I haven't entirely recovered from that.)

Please don't feel too bad about the ensuing and surprisingly long discussion that followed. It seems they were mostly responding to my comments, rather than yours (which again, I made in haste, and now regret). Maybe I'll just not respond to complaints about Inkscape's design, and leave others to argue the technical things, in the future

And by the way, Alchemy is not strictly a vector tool, but I believe can export SVG. It's just good for sketching, and quickly getting an idea together artistically.

druban wrote:

v1nce wrote: is the very same as kick one out.

This seems like one of those things where I might say, "who needs 'diagram connectors'' ? I never use them!

I will rephrase coz I wasn't clear enough.
I don't really ask to kick out one (well indeed that's really what I wrote but that's not what I was thinking ) I was more thinking about merging them.
Why can't behaves like and have its brush size decreasing/increasing along the path ? or simplified ?If so why would one need pencil tool anymore ?

druban wrote:You probably don't use the the way I do, and therefore you think it's the same as

I don't think they are the same I think they should be merged in one unique more powerfull tool.

druban wrote:but in fact the pencil creates closed shapes as well as stroked lines, and is indispensable for tracing by hand with a graphic tablet. Just my twopence.

It looks like I miss something because I don't understand "pencil creates closed shapes" (and how it is different from calligraphic tool)

The Calligraphy tool creates closed paths automatically, based on the many settings (on control bar). The Pencil tool creates an open path, unless the user closes it while they are drawing. They are entirely different, and one cannot be substituted for the other. If they were merged into one tool, either some features would be lost, or the resulting "super tool" would have so many options and settings, as to be very difficult to use.

I'm not sure i understand what you mean by

v1nce wrote:I think they should be merged in one unique more powerfull tool.

So say you make a 'SuperDrawTool ' and by pressing P it works in pencil mode and by pressing C it works in Calligraphy mode? Actually that's what we have right now! Even better, you can press B and have it work in Bezier mode as well! Just saying that it's all in how you define one tool - the toolbox could be setup so that when you click the icon a drop down appears allowing you to select a mode, but is that one tool or three?
Anyway, here's a quick doodle done with the pencil tool , not one shape of which would be possible to draw with the . Not without a lot of nodeediting and booleaning etc. Of course you might never need or want to draw anything like this! I myself can't imagine where it all came from, and now the guy on the left wants to borrow fifty bucks and my car!

brynn wrote:If they were merged into one tool, either some features would be lost, or the resulting "super tool" would have so many options and settings, as to be very difficult to use.

I don't agree with that. Gimp has a lot of tools (pencil, airbrush, clone, blur/sharp...) with few option but it sucks when you compared it to mypaint which offers one multipurpose tool that you can template.

v1nce wrote:

brynn wrote:If they were merged into one tool, either some features would be lost, or the resulting "super tool" would have so many options and settings, as to be very difficult to use.

I don't agree with that. Gimp has a lot of tools (pencil, airbrush, clone, blur/sharp...) with few option but it sucks when you compared it to mypaint which offers one multipurpose tool that you can template.

Agreed. The Calligraphy tool, while it was once a somewhat unique feature, has several Illustrator alternatives that simply work better without being complicated. The brush tool can create paths with a calligraphy stroke applies (with editable angle and thickness, by the way, which Inkscape sorely lacks), and the blob took works like the calligraphy tool but with the ability to change the shape of the stroke, and introduces erasing and other such features. Plus, since the calligraphy tool simply creates a welded path, simply eliminating and replacing the tool should have literally no impact on compatibility with SVG files that were created using this feature.

Honestly I don't know why you (brynn) patrol the forums telling users their complaints are invalid. As software users, while not every note we have may be useful or relevant, there's often a lot of agreement between users about what features need to be changed and it's pretty frustrating to have a moderator with a full-time mission to insist discontent is unfounded. The developers seem to disagree with you anyway, looking at the .49 release notes. Configurable control handles, improved selection, and various other UI improvements have been long-requested features that brynn has consistently insisted need no fixing, and yet there they are. Seriously, if the discussion isn't off-topic or insulting, you could back off. Inkscape is a work in progress.