Hello

While new to the forum, I have been using Inkscape46 for a few years now. I am joining because I would like to improve my skills, perhaps help push and develop the software, and meet other digital artists. I really need to explore some ideas - so I hope this site is as pleasant as it seems to be. I plan to support it as I can. I apologize for the length of this post.

I spend around 12 hours a night - almost every night - in front of the Inkscape interface. When rendering, I multitask by using another system on my desk for text transcription, GIMP and reference materials management.

While I do not know every command and function posed by the software, I certainly know the processes, tools and goals for which I use the system.

I do not create printables, websites, or clip art. I am a small business commercial user of the application. My business name is WEld publishing. The motto is "Art to Grow Smart By." My artistic interest is digital calligraphy, cartography and manuscript illumination for the home school market.

How do I use Inkscape? I do not want to get into an advertisement - I'll just say that I create what can be called slides in 8000 x 4500 pixel size. We are in the 4K+ era and many tablets etc have the ability to magnify an image. So, I either create new images in Adobe/Corel or recycle old images in GIMP - port them into inkscape - trace them and/or create new imagery in inkscape - output to PNG - import to GIMP - scale to 4K (for now) - output as JPG etc. Images are collected in topic sets which are sold on CDROM. Customers play the images in digital photo frames.

I have completed a project for the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and Constitution of the Confederate States of America. Those four were in 4:3 AR for the Slideshow Gadget. My current project is a chronology of American History which presents important information in a format inspired by the design of our national currencies. I call this set - Counterfits. I will post a few samples later if that is OK.

Seven observations about inkscape.

1. Great work!

2. I have read requests for CAD type functions. I think the inclusion of engineering-style functions would be a bad idea and a waste of time. However, precise drawing is an absolute necessity. I need to be able to draw lines of (eg) 8.25 inches at fifteen degrees to the baseplane. Though I know many, I really do not have time to learn the gimmicks. Simple command tools would be great. Currently, the best method to ensure precision is to draw it in another package, import and then trace. (refactor QCad?)

3. The filter editor could be more intuitive and perhaps graphic. Also, it would be nice to scan a rubbing and use that as the creation platform for texture effects.

4. CTRL-L smoothing is very useful - but it often creates pointy segments within long, meandering lines. I usually use it once on a freedraw line and manually change the sliders because additional executions tend to reduce accuracy.

5. I would love to hear an audible jingle when the render completes. I get into a project on the other system while rendering on the primary and forget to start another render when the first is done. The audible indicator would be a great help. Especially if I could select the jingle. ( R2D2 meets Yoda! )

6. A "Maul Plate" would be great too! Artists use a maul stick when drawing or painting. This keeps their hands off the canvas and prevents smudging. When I use my foamy ( a foam ended stick which acts like a paint brush on my touch screen system ) I often find myself touching the screen with my palm. Inkscape's calligraphy brush is outstanding. However, calligraphers need to twirl the stroke. For instance, a vertical line may start with a 30 degree slant at the top or cap, but it has to turn to zero degree baseline at the bottom of the stroke. This twirl causes my hand to hit the monitor. A maul plate would be a special layer which would act like a porthole. The brush would interact within the application - but only out to a selected radius from the stroke. The hole would move with the brush. Palm strikes would not affect the artwork. I think this would be a logical enhancement to the calligraphy options already presented by the software. And let this be a layer which can be colored or frosted to show the zone - and activate the zone on touch of brush to canvas. ( basically a unique type of matte )

7. Databasing!

Please do not try to compete with Adobe, Corel or any of the others. I do not use those programs because they are not "enough" for me. I see them as "end-user output" sources. I see Inkscape as an "end-user input" source. It is the only one. This is the ONLY reason I use it. The Blender Foundation might be a great structuring scheme for Inkscape. ( I know, I'm being pushy - but.... )

The entire concept behind Inkscape seems to be that it is a database. While it is very good in the role - just as a model-T Ford could be made into an outstanding race car - the production of outstanding digital art IS NOT the best use for this application. The project is too underfunded, under supported and under known to compete against the mega corps. The allure of Inkscape is the database opportunity. We need this.

Visualize a lesson set about world war one. To demonstrate the tools used to fight the war, I can create a schematic drawing of a weapon - say the 1911 handgun - in inkscape. This line drawing would include imported images and textures which originated in any other program and were imported after Gimping. Why then use Inkscape? Because it has the potential to cause a bullet to move up the magazine - engage in the barrel - interact with the firing pin - and show the bullet exiting the machine. This is not traditional animation. There need not be a frame-per-second rating. The software does not compete with any other tool. Inkscape could rely upon a mathematical formula or input control system to drive the animation. I create the drawing. The system causes the image on the layer to translate along a pre-set path. When appropriate, the next layer turns on, the old turns off, next sequence begins... The system is simply changing the XY coordinates and turning on layers. I still have to load the imagery into the database for the system to manipulate it.

Another example would be a drawing of a ball which would enter the screen and travel along a sin curve as it exits the other side. Text would be displayed for a given amount of time based on the student's needs. Etc.

In other words, I see the artwork I create in Inkscape as data stored in a database. I see the work created in Adobe etc as "end product" which could be stored, displayed and interacted with by users of a database viewing system. Inkscape is that database. Please consider creation of the viewing systems.

I suggest letting the corporations create the art production systems. Inkscape can facilitate the collection of that art into an easy to use graphic database.

An outstanding market for this would be archeologists and historians. 3D models of arrowheads, pottery and other items can be created In Blender etc. These could be imported, stored and manipulated in the database. This is not animation. It is more simulation. Basically, it is database functionality for visual rather than typographic data.

Well, those are my thoughts. I have not posted these as suggestions because they are not really at that level yet. While I would love to see some of these, I do not know enough about programming to even begin to suggest methods of fulfillment.

Thanks for your time

James Anthony Wright

Welcome to InkscapeForum!

I moved your message. I think it deserves a topic of its own

That's very interesting how you're using Inkscape. I don't understand everything you've described, but I get the general idea. I think I would quite enjoy cartography -- I can spend long chunks of time looking at maps!

1 - Agreed

2 - I'm not familiar with CAD software, but we certainly have had several messages wishing Inkscape were more CAD-like. In some ways, Inkscape is incredibly precise. But in other ways, not so much. While you can use snapping, and snap theoretically precisly, if you look closely, snapping can often off by as much as 0.1 to 0.2 px. I haven't done any specific tests, but just in every day use, I've noticed that sometimes, like snapping to a grid, it snaps precisely. But other times, Inkscape seems to think close enough is ok.

3 - Regarding the Filters Editor, I couldn't agree more. While I've sometimes managed to tweak existing filters to suit my needs, I can't figure out how to make a filter from scratch. If it can't be more intuitive, it could at least include better tutorials. Of course I've read the manual chapters covering filters, several times through. But it's really weak and doesn't explain several key steps. (Of course I can use the F/S dialog to blur an object, and create a filter from that. That's because blur already is a filter. I'm talking about making more complex filters.)

4 - That's known behavior, although I've had the impression that it's intended behavior. I think it would be nice if it were more flexible. Like for example, something like each click reduces the number of nodes by something like 50%. I couldn't tell you how many times 1 click of Simplify has been too severe; or 1 click isn't enough, but 2 is too much. It's like an all or nothing tool, as it is.

5 - I'm not a fan of computer sounds, and most likely would disable any sounds if Inkscape were given them. But I am a fan of having choices! As long as I could disable the sounds, I wouldn't mind if Inkscape had some. Although....you know, I'm not sure how many people use Inkscape tools or commands that take a long time to complete. Usually when that happens, people are complaining that Inkscape is too slow, lol. This is the first I've heard someone who doesn't mind waiting, lol. I guess it's the sheer size and/or number of nodes in your files, that cause you to have to wait? Because you know, the more RAM the better, right?

6 - Maul stick/maul plate -- interesting idea. I wonder if people who use a graphics tablet (somewhat similar to tablet pc or touch screen) would have the same needs? When I first heard about graphics tablets, I thought they might be the size of maybe a clipboard. But not too long ago, I learned that they are really much smaller. So maybe resting the hand isn't such an issue

7 - I can only vaguely understand what you're suggesting with databasing. But I suspect others will have comments.

I'm not sure if you realize that this forum is primarily a users' forum. A few developers participate, and probably more lurk but rarely post. If you want to be sure your comments are heard by the whole developement community, you might consider addressing the mailing list with your comments (http://inkscape.org/mailing_lists.php?lang=en). Also, inkscape.org and especially wiki.inkscape.org will have info on future plans.

Anyway, welcome aboard, and please feel free to jump right in!

There are possibilities of adding sounds.
I was browsing in the inkscape files
and discovered there was a line in some codes disabling sound with a #comment
of win users wouldn't like a sound when they press backspace in an empty textbox.
So you may have some luck on that.

nelchai wrote:
3. The filter editor could be more intuitive and perhaps graphic. Also, it would be nice to scan a rubbing and use that as the creation platform for texture effects.

There is a blueprint http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php ... erEditorUI that would make it more usable (one day...)

^That looks like blender's node editor window.

Lazur URH wrote:^That looks like blender's node editor window.

it looks like any serious filter/texture/audio editor look like for ages.
http://www.sonicspot.com/audioarchitect ... itect.html
http://slack.codemaniacs.com/mongoose/19-worley.jpg
http://a.fsdn.com/con/app/proj/neotextu ... 253584.jpg
http://www.rampantgames.com/blog/upload ... 763382.jpg
http://terrymorgan.net/images/mapzone.jpg

If ever it will be built in, then maybe they could implement it on the basic node editing as well.
To create a parametric drawing kit like in rhino 3D's grasshopper.

Me again,

Thanks for the reception and warmth.

I agree with the sentiments regarding computer noise. The last thing I need is a night of obnoxious sound from my computer. However, when rendering at 8x4.5K with filters, type and other issues happening within the space - my renders take a while. ( Asus CM5570 with 8GB Ram ) To compensate for this, I multitask. I do other task sets on the second system sitting on my desk while waiting to start another render. The ability to select a short jingle which plays when the system finishes the render out to PNG would be a very useful indicator. Note: I can get about 50 renders a night (12 hrs) currently. Maybe this feature would help me push out another couple dozen.

How would I render farm inkscape?

Tanks
James

Me again,

I tend to break responses down by subject. I think it makes responses easier.

As for CAD -

Snap is useless - even in autocad!

To set a snap, one must know the distance module they are drawing to. If the snap is 0.25 inch then the snap grid is that distance. Drawing to that snap requires that everything be that distance. Ever try to draw a gear to a snap control set? Doesn't work. Almost nothing obeys the snap grid. They are a waste of time.

What CAD - or actually precise drawing - needs is controlled linkability and accurate measurement.

First - CAD - these applications are expected by their community to offer engineering functions. The drawings can be analyzed for mechanical stability, flow measurements and other things. All of these rely upon databasing - but the guarantees are not appropriate for an open source package. The really big issue is the engineer's need for part labeling. Certain aspects of a design can be labeled for production with certain materials in particular factories and such.

Inkscape does not need that functionality.

Precise drawing - We need to draw a line of a known length at given angles to other lines. When that line finishes, it needs to attach itself to the path of the previous line. For instance, the first attaches to the second at an endpoint, midpoint, intersection etc. This is the same as the join 2 nodes function but much more direct and intuitive. The attach at midpoint would simply be a calculation of the length of a line and the insertion of a new node at its midpoint to connect the other line to. Perhaps the first line is flat at 0 degrees. The second line would link to the first at midpoint without destroying the second line's 30 degree angle to it.

Circles need to be connectable at quadrants. Circles need to be creatable from the selection of a center and radius. The distance to radius could be the location of a previous midpoint or other node.

Basically, geometric constructs have mathematical restraints and precise drawing utilizes those to create art. I think this is already being done within the application. It probably required more programming to loosen things up than to regulate according to a math formula. Please do not get too bogged down in the fact that inkscape can create a square and that the user should learn the gimmicks to turn it into a precise drawing. Save time by letting us use inkscape as efficiently as possible. QCAD was an open source CAD program. It was actually little more than a precise drawing system. It should be easy to refactor and integrate with inkscape.

Next trip to a bookstore or library - check out a book on CAD. Those functions are SOOO doable within inkscape. We simply don't have time in this economy to learn the work arounds. Precise drawing would be more enticing to a user community.

Also, integrate some scaling. I know that the system offers unrestricted scaling. It also offers percentage based scaling. What about use of proportional scaling? 1/4 inch to 1 foot....

Tanks
James

Me again,

First, let me say that I prefer to use forums as sounding boards. I state my thoughts, listen to the responses, refine my opinions - and then use the time of the people who could do something about the issues. If my ideas are popular - I'll address the developers after. I simply do not want to waste their time with ideas that may be too unique.

Mahl Plate - drawing calligraphy with the calligraphy tool is great. One needs that calligraphic contact to do it. Artist's tablets do not offer pen tip sets. Calligraphers need the different tip shapes to feel the twist and curls of their lines. I have a set of foamies which let me draw great lines on my touch screen. They have all been carved to proper shape. The palm thing gets in the way. A mahl plate is an excellent fix. With this addition, traditional calligraphers will be attracted to inkscape.

Simplify Tool - Please let us choose the degree of simplify per use of the function. 5% smoothing would be better than 50% in many situations. This should actually be an easy enhancement to the code.

Tanks
James

I agree that Inkscape could use a series of interface updates. Nothing drastic or jarring enough to leave us completely confused. I could see:

1. Enhancements to the Toolbox (left side toolbar): a small fly-out box offering some choices that could be tweaked in the Tools Control Bar (second set of controls just under the Command Bar, which is under File Edit View). A picture is worth a thousand words:


Fly out boxes from LibreOffice's Draw

The current Tools Control Bar would remain in place to allow for further adjustments.

2. Adding controls to built-in Inkscape tools such as mentioned by Brynn (a way to adjust the sensitivity of Simplify Path, among others).

3. Adding controls to Filters (eg. Filters > Bevels > Button. A way of directing which way the light hits the button would be appreciated, along with how thick the button appears, etc.)

4. Adding a user-friendly interface to current Extensions, and requiring such interfaces for all new Extensions.

Me again,
Last time

Databasing -

Inkscape is written in SVG for XML = DATABASE

Other databases store typographic characters.
Inkscape stores visual characters such as image imports, gradients, lines and nodes.

Other databases allow searching for - James Anthony Wright - as a string of Unicode data entries.
Inkscape organizes data entries - my photograph - in layers rather than fields. These fields could be searched by title and turned on-off via user or computer decisions.

Other databases allow sorting. Sorting is basically the computer driven selection of which items to display, where to display them and under which conditions. Subroutines tell the system to display this entry in bold text but that one at 25% greater size than the others.

Inkscape has the ability to do the same thing. Inkscape could cause an image to translate 100 pixels in the X or Y direction, change color, enlarge 10% etc. These are the exact same functions being performed on a visual data entry instead of a textural entry. The computer does not know the difference. The computer sees the item but not its meaning to the human viewer.

With an evolved inkscape - the user receives data manipulation of visual entries - a ball bouncing on a sine curve - rather than animation and simulation.

Collect data from a submarines' descent - a storm path - barometric pressure changes - IED trajectories - crime scene activity.....
Reconstruct that data, analyze it, display it with the visual database - Inkscape.

Inkscape can receive images created in any other graphic program.
Databases receive data.

Inkscape can manipulate the display of these items with either a creator's control or via computerized routines.
Databases manipulate and present data.

Consider an archaeological excavation.
The diggers create drawings and models of their discoveries in some system such as Blender, Adobe, Corel etc.
That graphic data gets stored in a database = inkscape.
They then use that database to model and reconstruct the location of the excavation.
The database can be used to make the skeletons stand and walk through the excavation site.
The database puts the spear in the hunter's hand.
The database shows that spear being thrown and manages its trajectory, impact force and other analytical items.
All of this would be done visually, perhaps real time, without the bias associated with the creation of an animation or simulation.

Blender creates animations.
Inkscape recreates reality.


The ability to draw and create art in Inkscape is great and necessary when entering data - but it will never be on the same level as Adobe etc.

Adobe is a static end-product creation system.
Inkscape is the database which can manage those products.

Adobe is the artwork.
Inkscape is the museum. ( of course curators need to write and draw diagrams etc )

I think this is why people fail to use Inkscape. They think that it is an open source system trying to compete with Adobe. They need Adobe for their work environment. What is the value of Inkscape?

As a hobby based system Inkscape will not survive. It takes too long to learn the gimmicks in Adobe to also learn different gimmicks in Inkscape.

What then is the value of Inkscape?

Inkscape is the database which will allow an artist to manage, control and display their collection. This can drive the reconstruction of historical events, analyze visual data, manage a personal portfolio or establish a virtual museum.

Adobe lets you create the artwork.
Inkscape can help you sell it.

Tanks
James

PS - I do not believe the corporations would choose to compete with Inkscape on this field. No corporation wants the product made with their software to be managed by another corporation. Inkscape is open source and rather neutral. There is no risk to the others. Users would prefer that openness rather than having to be part of another corporation's license management system. Appearing to compete with Adobe is a no-future decision. Building a visual databasing system is Inkscape.

First gripe post

Has 48 corrected this problem?

I have a file which is 12.5 MB in size.
I am using an ASUS CM5570 with 8 GB RAM.

File = 12 MB
RAM = 8 GB

I try to render the file and it simply will not do so. I have to remove layers - which are actually invisible during the attempted render - to create a file under 8.5 MB in size. Otherwise it simply will not render.

Read that again - I have to destroy my file before it will render out!

I run into this memory cap frequently!

If I try to import another image post 10MB it gives me the Image not found dialog.

Has anyone updated the allowables from the original SODIPODI code stack?

Are we in the Terabyte era or still limited to Kilobytes?

Tanks
James

"File = 12 MB
RAM = 8 GB"

There is a way to make Inkscape use multiple processors better for displaying filters, raster filters. And that can improve performance on the canvas quite a bit. But I don't think that would apply to rendering....although I guess I'm not clear what you mean by "rendering". If you're waiting for a filter to render, that might be just the thing. But if you're waiting for something to print, I don't think it would help.

I would guess that 8 gb RAM should be able to handle a 12 mb image. But it depends also on what you're doing. I can see certain processes bogging it down for awhile.

Well anyway, you could try this, if you haven't already found it. In 0.48.4, or earlier, go to Inkscape Preferences > Filters > Number of threads. Enter the number of however many processors you have.

Or, if you want to try your luck with the development version of 0.49, you can benefit from a new renderer, which is expected to help with a lot of the performance issues on the canvas, as well as, I hope, reduce posting about performance issues on the forum, once it comes out in a stable release (which we're all starting to think may be never, at this point, lol). (I think Inks Prefs is different in 0.49, and the number of threads setting is somewhere else.) (I'm not sure where, since I don't use it.)

I have to disagree on many levels on that cad part.
None of the applications will ever be using precise mathematical formulas.
Nor xml is based on point-cloud-like geometry.
It is all of bezier splines. Spiro-splines might be an optinion, but inkscape cannot work with them as good as with the original.


Also, xml can certainly handle labeling, as it can handle animations as well.


AND

Adobe lets you create the artwork.
Inkscape can help you sell it.

Two no-s.

Artwork is not based on the program you use.
You can create artwork with a ball point pen, as well as with a cnc machine.
Adobe just creates built-in solutions.
Vasarely is most known of his paintings of sphere-like op-art, which effect can be mimmicked by one click in photoshop, but it won't make it art.

Inkscape won't sell any work as it is a freewhare itself.
It won't give any finishing options to an adobe work in most cases, that adobe couldn't do.
Also inkscape can't yet compete with adobe's cymk and spot colour system, which printing material -work to be sold- is largely based on.

brynn wrote:In 0.48.4, or earlier, go to Inkscape Preferences > Filters > Number of threads. Enter the number of however many processors you have.

As you may have seen if you went through these steps, the Gaussian Blur quality for display along with the Filter Effects quality for display options are right there.

Of course, you realize the trade-off: making these work faster renders them poorly onscreen. Since my primary desire is saving the file, I'd rather it render in Inkscape a little faster because I can save the file as a PNG. Now a 12 Mb file loaded with filters will probably be faster to render to PNG than on screen, especially since I tend to Alt-tab away.

Response to last post

Reading other posts on this website - others are saying the same thing I am about the usability of inkscape.

1. Professional pay-for-work entities require knowledge of Adobe's software. We do not have time to keep up with the gimmicks, work arounds, reprogram this or that, type this into the code to get a jingle etc philosophies. People who think like that are wasteful and very quickly unemployed. Play on someone else's time!

Professionals have time to learn what works and ignore the rest!

I am an artist not a programmer. If I have to program this software - that is time wasted to me. Hello Adobe.

2. Those who use inkscape do so for, basically, portfolio, icon and website production. I use it because of its outstanding potential as a visual database management system.
3. People, kids etc, who do not have jobs play with inkscape to learn skills which translate into usability with Adobe when they can afford it.
4. Why Inkscape?

Artwork IS based on the tools one uses.

1. Acrylic is very different from Oil and watercolor. Some of these are highly sought after by collectors, others are not.
2. Read Imagine FX or another magazine about digital artwork. They NEVER mention inkscape. Geek mags mention inkscape, but usually in relation to creating icons for Linux. Professional ARTISTS do not use it in any substantive way or quantity. Professionals use Adobe.
3. Adobe does not create one's artwork or "built-in solutions". The most valuable art industry on the planet is the video game. Assassin's Creed and others are either made directly within Adobe or augmented by it after traditional and FORMZ techniques. None of that is "built-in solutions." Try to SELL - MARKET - MAKE A LIVING WITH - ball point pen drawings and you will starve! Digital era = digital art = Adobe! You can read dozens of posts on this forum to see that.


Are you in any way familiar with the realities of working as a digital artist?


If the developers and users of Inkscape continue to view it as a competitor for Adobe - it will FAIL! They are wasting their time learning to use it!

Inkscape has absolutely no chance of competing as open source software against corporations with BILLIONS of dollars in their pockets!
Can not be done!

Fantasies of possible success against these impossible odds explain our unrecoverable economy!
It CAN NOT be done!


Why Inkscape?

1. Read the other posts. Commercial users use it to sell their work. No, I am not referring to inkscape as another form of etsy or ebay.

( Go sit in the corner with people who drool on themselves, live at home with mommy and daddy, and suffer knowing that they are midlife virgins! )

No, I am not saying that Inkscape will help anyone network with galleries etc. Professionals use words like "sell" to refer to ADVERTISING! Have you ever had to do that to sell your work and pay your mortgage?

Inkscape is used to create portfolios. Advertising!
Inkscape is used to create websites. Advertising!
Inkscape is used to create icons. Advertising!

Inkscape is a tool artists use to sell themselves to their collectors. Even the developers use their involvement to post bullets on their resume to sell themselves. Advertising!

Why Inkscape?

DATABASE

I explored the opportunities of that earlier. I would like to clarify that archeologists and others can use those database entities - which they would store in Inkscape - to analyze, understand, ADVERTISE and "SELL" their opinions regarding the events to funding sources. You know, people who will pay ( give grant to ) an archeologist to expand a dig based on their current understanding of their discoveries. They must be able to communicate that understanding. This is an opportunity for Inkscape.

That ability to store visual data and reconstruct a past reality is the value of Inkscape. Animations are actually static. Keyframers and tweeners create every frame of an animation. Once made, an animation sequence will never change. Even simulations are defined in part by the bias of those who create them. Databases can be driven by formulae, sub routines, randomness generators and even unique user inputs. Product is dynamic. That is Inkscape's future. Competing with Adobe is a graveyard.

As for the fact that XML and Inkscape could handle labeling - what is the economic advantage to doing so? Time Waste ! ( unemployed! )

Inkscape does not need to be a CAD program.

Inkscape needs precise drawing or it WILL become even more irrelevant.



ALL PROGRAMS USE PRECISE MATH FORMULAE!

That is why they are called COMPUTERS!



A circle has a mathematical formula. Use that to identify the quadrants. Allow an intersecting line to connect at the node. All of that functionality is already in Inkscape - in a way that is unfriendly to the people who are trying to use it. Listen and fix the problem. Otherwise, the bullet "I helped develop inkscape" on the resume begets a respone "you were part of that failure?" (Unemployed!)

Finally, why would inkscape want to use CMYK and other printing technologies?

Printing cartidges cost so much that no one is going to print - unless they are not the people paying for it. Those who are paying for it are corporations - which require the use of Adobe. Waste money at work = unemployed.

"Printing material is what is sold"

Have you been paying attention to the publishing industry since around 1990?

It is drying up very quickly. Artwork for digital display is what is selling - not paper! Magazines, journals and newspapers CAN NOT survive without an online or digital presence. People want Playboy on their Smart Phones and IPADS - not in their mailbox!

Paper is dead!

Sony has actually created a completely flexible display system which is paper thin and can roll up and maybe even crinkle!

Combine that with enzyme and quantum based memory systems - add in the laws restricting foresting - the realities of climate change - the simple psychology of wanting the newest technological fad - all of it equates to the death of paper!

What they need is a databasing system which is open source, non threatening and able to manage the visual information on the new technology.

Only Inkscape has a hope of providing it - because no one will want their artwork to be subservient to their competitor's systems.

Again - Inkscape CAN NOT compete with those deep pockets!

Please, do not waste time trying to do so.

Tanks
James


Either Inkscape is going to evolve for the modern realities or it will fade away.
1. Get over the "a few people are..." and "well, you can reprogram it here..." philosophies because they are wasting everyone's time.
2. A failed system is not good advertising on a programmer's resume.
3. Seize opportunities and fight winnable battles or become irrelevant.

Me again

I read the post about the developers trying to improve the render - ( I'm sorry : export to PNG) - tool set.

It will not work!

It won't!


1. The function is not an export. The function is a render. The function recalculates the vector data into bitmap data. That is a render. Display would be the presentation of digital data onto a monitor. Display is different than render.

2. Inkscape actually has a port function. It is called - make bitmap copy.

3. If I create a bitmap in GIMP and save it in a folder as PNG - I can click drag that image into Inkscape. The end result is the presence of the image as a bitmap entity within the inkscape file. That is porting. There is no change in the character of the file itself. It has simply been transPORTed from here to there.

4. Export to PNG is actually " Make Render " - This command causes the vector data to convert into bitmap data. If there were any way to optimize that function Hollywood would have already done so. Instead, they must establish render farms to facilitate more than 60 Million render hours for a movie ( eg Monsters vs Aliens ).

5. Attempts to improve the rendering from Inkscape MUST rely upon render farm techniques. Look at the Wikipedia article on the issue. At the bottom there are a few links with outstanding descriptions of the problems. In short, even the multi-threaded I7 processers do very little to enhance render times. The only way to do so is to create a farm of several rendering CPUS and boards. This requires management which could be very easily accommodated within inkscape's database structure. Perhaps groups of layers can be rendered on one CPU and other layers on another? These would then be composited similar to the process within Blender.

( also, please stop rendering data which is not visible and turned off at the start of the render - it is not visible in the final image but I know the calculations are considering it anyway - an example of this is when I have a layer with marbled ink filter applied - I hit 4 for the viewspace - it zooms out to the edge of the filter even though the edges are not visible - I have the dotted edges when I select the marbled ink layer so I know it is doing this )

6. Rendering requires render farms because of the limitation of ALL CPU designs. There is no work around for this.

7. Why does it need to be rendered anyway?

8. Consider the - make bitmap copy - function. It very quickly captures a snapshot of the selected layer and ports that into the file folder. I say port because the image is intrinsically a bitmap from creation. There is no conversion. It is simply put some place.

9. The problem with this function is that - as far as I can work it - the function only captures items on the selected layer. ( within the memory caps )

10. I have to manually compress all of the relevant layers to get a bitmap copy of the image as I want it to be when using the - make bitmap copy. ( and hope it is below approximately 9MB in size )

11. To improve the output to other image location time - which everyone wants - simply improve the make bitmap copy function.

12. First - rename make bitmap copy to = export PNG bitmap - - - Rename Export to PNG and label it Render. These names are more appropriate for what each is doing.

13. Second - Consider the screenshot function. It is basically a camera which takes a photograph of the display space. Quick, easy, increasingly clean and usable. Create the same type of camera within Inkscape's work space.

14. Currently, the make bitmap copy function works on the selected layer. Modify it so that a user can select a region - I use a special layer with a backer 8000x4500 pixels. This backer is selected when I render - and everything above it is translated into bitmap. Let us select a layer to define the limitations of the photographic zone - the virtual camera takes a photograph of the selected space. This captures all data which is visible between the virtual camera's lens and the selected layer or photographic zone. The size of the photograph - now a bitmap image - would be the same pixel size as the layer selected for the photographic zone. if my selected zone is 8000x4500 pixels then the photograph is 8000x4500 pixels. Easy and fast to create a photograph like this. Why wait for the render?

16. If we are able to get a good bitmap copy - which we already have partial usability with - then why do we need to render?

17. If we need to render - use a render farm.

Tanks
James

Tanks, James!

These are some very challenging points: thoughtful and well-written.

I sense no hostility in your text. In fact, you clearly have an appreciation for the Inkscape software—enough to light a small fire under our collective bottoms as to the future of Inkscape and what part it will play in its future.

Your treatise is the sort of challenge any development team should appreciate:

1. It's straightforward. You're not mincing words or serving it up with loads of sugar.
2. You're speaking from the perspective of a person who's in touch with what artists seek to use.
3a. You're not trolling the forum, ridiculing the software as one that will never compete.
3b. Rather, you're informing us what artists use (art tools do help pay off mortgages) and why Inkscape could be marginalized in the minds of said artists.
4. You're presenting valid possibilities for Inkscape's future development.

Those of us who currently use Inkscape are probably quite short-sighted when we examine what Inkscape could be. A fresh perspective may be exactly what the Inkscape community needs.

I believe Inkscape has achieved what the initial SodiPodi group mapped out for their future. Perhaps fresh maps are in order.

As far as it being too difficult for Inkscape developers to accomplish, I'm reminded of Steve Jobs and Apple programmers. Jobs would insist something be done while his programmers said it was an impossibility. But when release time came, the job was done. As much as Apple's developers found Steve Jobs insufferable, he pushed them beyond the limits they thought existed. Though not a perfect model, it does illustrate that we can do more than we can imagine.

So, very honestly: thank you for your fresh perspectives.

Hello

Thank You BobSongs.

I do not mean to sound abrasive in anything I write and apologize if I have.

However, I am realistic.

Its just that I use this software all day every day and have for years. I am not a casual user. I literally bet the farm on this application every day. I do not make websites - I make art. I will load a couple of my current project when they finish rendering.

With Adobe's decision to go subscription - I'm certain they will go to a pay-per-use-of-each-command system before long. There are going to be a lot of people looking for an alternative. Inkscape - Illustrator -- GIMP - Photoshop --- Scribus - InDesign. Sony has a nice replacement for Premiere.

Megabyte level memory caps are intolerable.
Non-Render Farm based rendering ( export to PNG ) is intolerable.
Long display update times are intolerable.
Lack of precision in drawing is intolerable.
etc

If Inkscape is little more than a research group for the newest possible subroutines rather than a professional platform for the creation of digital artwork - we need to know that ASAP. We could spend our time rebuilding an appropriate system rather than wasting it learning something which feels growth impossible.

Tanks
James


PS
The way to solve the long display refresh time is to use a render farm. In traditional render farm setups the process is user initiated and basically parallel. The user tells the system to render and a central computer sends packages of information out to the other systems that they may be rendered. All of this happens in parallel with each system returning their finals back to the central system for compositing etc.

Improvements to the display refresh rate can work in a serial render farm system. Establish thresholds within the routines. Perhaps there are a million nodes which need to be refreshed after a 25% zoom in is initiated by the user. The system knows that it can only best display - read very quickly display - up to half a million. The system would automatically call upon the second motherboard in the render farm. That board would calculate part of the job and integrate the data with the first. Additional boards and CPUs in the series would be called up as necessary. The result would be a much faster display reload time. Of course, the thresholds could be established by the user for their needs - IF THE option is available.

This is important because individual CPUs are limited. There are just so many ports and paths into the CPU regardless of the threading technologies. Just so many electrons can travel those paths. There comes a point when the "pipes" get clogged. Better subroutines and programming can not add new "pipes." The only way to add more and faster rendering and display times is to add more CPUs and boards. Render Farms are a requirement of vector based drawing and computations.

nelchai wrote:...I do not mean to sound abrasive in anything I write...

I didn't detect any abrasiveness whatsoever. But I did pick up an urgency in Inkscape's need to set a course where it can corner the market... be a package that rises up and meets some tough challenges.

It's obviously difficult for OpenSource software to compete with the pay-for model. But heck: I've seen Wikipedia have a drive for funding, as well as LibreOffice. These people need to pay their mortgages too! And if they're going to offer anything of value, we must face the ugly fact that money must exchange hands.

Inkscape benefits from the Google's Summer of Code. On the one hand, I am pleased that Google is extending money by hiring summer students to help improve OpenSource software. But on the other hand, such financial giants that benefit from opensource software (Google uses Linux) could allow for a larger slice of their profits to go to a project like Inkscape.

What I'm saying James is: If your ideas captured the Inkscape development team, they could possibly present them to large corporations that appreciate open-source software (such as Google) in order to receive year-round support in order to move Inkscape up a few levels.

nelchai wrote:...However, I am realistic.

Its just that I use this software all day every day and have for years. I am not a casual user. I literally bet the farm on this application every day. I do not make websites - I make art. I will load a couple of my current project when they finish rendering.

In my humble opinion, you're clearly someone who knows Inkscape, uses it and wishes to convey to us here a future for Inkscape. This software has the potential to muscle its way (be it ever so gently) into the market and make itself known. The market is a dog-eat-dog. Your insight is appreciated.

nelchai wrote:

• Megabyte level memory caps are intolerable.
• Non-Render Farm based rendering ( export to PNG ) is intolerable.
• Long display update times are intolerable.
• Lack of precision in drawing is intolerable.
• etc

If Inkscape is little more than a research group for the newest possible subroutines rather than a professional platform for the creation of digital artwork - we need to know that ASAP. We could spend our time rebuilding an appropriate system rather than wasting it learning something which feels growth impossible.

I personally have no idea if Inkscape is a collaborative work of a few programmers who do what they can after their 9-to-5 work hours or if they've got some collective office somewhere with a spare desk for the Google Summer of Code person. I bring this up because I honestly don't know how your suggestions could be implemented, as good and as focused as they may be.

Be that as it may, your points are refreshing, challenging and coming from a professional perspective.

Thank you!

Have no idea what lead you to these thoughts.

You are the one who is forcing the rendering to bitmaps.
Data from an svg vector editor to something else.
For what end? Svg should be the saving format from a vector drawing tool which is built for creating svg-s.
Not any renderfarms for a wysiwyg editor.
You are not rendering animation or 3D.
If you make even animations, they render in real-time.
Again, it is way beyond me why you think about render farms.
You think an svg editor should produce large format bitmaps for your needs? And that it is the common user's workaround???

Again. Art is not a produce of a program. It is not an opinion.
If you say something different, you say art wasn't existing before computer era.

Adobe wont give you art.
All it gives is fancy stuff. Pre-defined stuff. A wide variety of things to chose from.
It gives more possibilities on easy workarounds for creating.

Nothing more.

If you use adobe, your work wont turn artwork.
You can add nice len's flares and alike filters for overblown nonsence images.
It is a commercial product for commercial use.
By giving efficient solutions for people working in the graphic market. Making the creation of design graphic, illustrations easier.
For the user.
Even for the common user.
With no knowledge and any style whatsoever. Nor the passion to learn to improve.
Thus more wack thing comes out from it, than from a program that the user have to experient with.
And learn.
Adobe is for the dumb in my opinion.
The lazyness of the artists, that lead to spreading the world with ugly stuff from people who shouldn't work in the field at all.

Other thoughts.
Graphic design hopefully will never be fully screen-based.
So there is no need for printing books? Who cares? Every product packaging still have hell lot of graphic work.
Mostly screen printed material. Meaning with spot colours on the pantone palette.
So will the "for creating art" or the "museum" sell the commercial works?
Technically yet only adobe can, so that is again, not an opinion .

I don't see you get my previous points. So far not much of a conversation here.

[

we = artists = users of the software

druban wrote:Actually, no. Hard to believe that someone using it day in and day out hasn't used this command, which makes a bitmap version of whatever object is selected, at a particular resolution (adjustable in upcoming versions, fixed in current stable

The function captures an image which originates in bitmap format.
That image is then stored in a folder.
That image can be click-drag ( drug) into GIMP etc in the same format as it was originally created.
That is a port.

Mathematically changing an image from vector data into bitmap data is not a port -
Export to PNG
- it is a render.

The math of changing the character of the drawing is in fact rendering. The only two ways to make that happen faster are 1. take a bitmap photo of the workspace just as the Make Bitmap Copy does or 2. Render Farm. There is no other way - Hollywood would have found it if there were.

Adjustable resolutions - if accurate enough - and it probably will be - will greatly speed up work flow. It is a great development which someone else thought of before me. Wonderful.

I hope the function offers the option of taking the image of everything above the selected layer as well. Otherwise, the layers will still need to be compressed down so that all of the data can be captured. One could manually select everything, but that can cause the output of invisible data as well. For instance, the invisible edges of the marbled ink filter. Only a defined rectangular area is being filtered, but, the selection box extends quite far beyond the workspace.

druban wrote:Have you looked at the statusbar while drawing?

It is very difficult, to say the least, to try to draw a line of a given precise length by relying on the status bar. The presence of the status bar does indicate that the system has the ability to measure the line. Let the users select, with value data entry, that length and angle etc. We are not asking for a redesign of the system. We are trying to tell the developers that the work-arounds and such are either not precise / effective enough - are not present - take too much professional time etc.

If the commands and such were presented in a way that is well-designed, logical (from we THE USER'S daily routines and familiarities), and functionally consistent with industry standards - maybe we could stop having to ask you and others the same questions repeatedly.

Simple engineering - if the users are not using it efficiently - CHANGE THE DESIGN!

When the users are repeating their questions - they are wasting their time - there is a problem with the design. Please fix it.

druban wrote:In the export PNG dialog you can define the exported area in a variety of ways to suit user's particular needs, including an area defined by coordinates and size (custom). Does it have to be called camera?

Again - This is not a port. This is not a camera of the workspace which would originate in bitmap format. This is a translation from vector graphics to bitmap. This is a RENDER!

druban wrote:Actually this seems to comfort me in some way. Perhaps because I can see how seriously to take the other comments.

One thing professionals really do not have time for is the amateur. For instance, explaining to someone that PHOTOSHOP does a lot more than control lens flare. As for taking people seriously - are you a digital artist? Do you work as a user of Inkscape all day every day? I am not referring to developer or website producer. I am seeking to understand if you know how to use this software as an ARTIST. Read the posts: many of us (ARTISTS) are asking for the exact same things I have requested. I see the solutions already within the software. I am trying to state methods by which I see those solutions becoming more effective. Why are you not listening? Instead of saying - as you have a couple of times with your post - basically - "User, you should learn the work-arounds" - Listen to what so many of us are saying.

1. Develop a render farm management system native to Inkscape
2. Update the variables in the subroutines to remove the approximately 9 MB memory cap
3. Facilitate precise drawing
4. Eliminate the "work-around" development philosophy
5. Inkscape started with the intent of being a database - let it be a databasing system


Thank You
James

Just a FYI.