Hi Friends,
More problems with 0.46. These may well have been reported in the mailing list, but I don't subscribe. So hopefully someone can tell what to do to fix these things.

1st problem:
Whenever I minimize a dialog (send to taskbar), the entire image window minimizes. I can only use dialogs by closing them completely after each use.

I've tried the "Iconify" feature, which works well, if only one dialog is iconified. But if 2 dialogs are iconified, the area where they appear iconified is covered by their scrollbar. I've found the resizing feature, where I can make the canvas a little smaller, to reveal the iconified dialogs. But if I reopen a dialog from its iconified position, do whatever I need to do with it, and re-iconify it, the scrollbar again covers both iconified dialogs. So I have to resize the canvas after every time I iconify more than one dialog.

2nd problem:
This one is more complex. I've been working on an image using the Duplicate Window feature, but when I call up the Duplicate Window in 0.46, there seems to be an issue with the grid display. It's going to be hard to describe in words, so I've uploaded a series of screen prints. Please click here to see them.

Normally I've been working with the main image window (on the right), using a grid, zoomed to approx 1600%; while I've been keeping the duplicate window (on the left), also with a grid, zoomed to approx 400%. Referring to my screen prints,the one outlined in RED, shows the dupl. window active, with the approx zooms I've been using. The screen print outlined in BLUE shows what happens next, when I click in the main image window, to make it active, and work in it. As you can see, the grid sort of switches places, in the areas where the windows overlap.

In the GREEN outlined screen print, you can see that the main image window is active. But the PURPLE outlined screen print shows what happens next when I click in the duplicate window to make it active.

In order to create the red and green screen prints, I had to reset the zoom after switching windows, to make them appear as they should. And that's the only way I can make it work as it should, reset the zoom after each switch. The blue and purple prints show what happens if I switch windows and don't reset the zoom. I didn't make a screen print of what happens if I switch BACK, because it looks just like it does after the 1st initial switch. In other words, if I switch windows without resetting the zoom, and then switch back, the problem does NOT reverse itself. It stays distorted where the windows overlap.

I might mention that I would not need to switch between the main and duplicate windows, if they did not overlap each other. In this new 0.46 however, the smallest one can resize a window, is quite a bit larger than in the version I was using before. In the version I was using before, the dupl window and main window still overlapped, but by much less. Please feel free to let me know if I can gather any further info about this problem, to help in either diagnosing or fixing it.

Oh wait, there's more. In my older version, if I disabled the grid in either window, the grid in the other window was also disabled. In this new 0.46, I have to disable the grids from each/both View Menus, to have them both disabled, OR turned back on.

Any ideas about these issues? What I can do to make the usual Duplicate Window features work as they should? I should probably say that I use the 800 x 600 screen res, and Windows XP Home sp2.

Thank for your help

The first problem is bug 211678. The second problem is bug 183622. I don't think there are any workarounds.

The excessive minimum window size is bug 168648.

In my older version, if I disabled the grid in either window, the grid in the other window was also disabled. In this new 0.46, I have to disable the grids from each/both View Menus, to have them both disabled, OR turned back on.

Maybe that's a feature rather than a bug. I can imagine that some people might want a grid in one view but not in the other. Perhaps there should be a preferences setting for this.

Whoa !!

So what happens after a bug is fixed? Do Inkscape developers ever release patches, in between stable version releases? Or are we stuck with this until the next version comes out? Wow! I can't believe this new version has been released with such major problems

Is 0.45, or even 0.44 still available? Or would a System Restore get me back my older, but better functioning version?

Thank you for your help sas.
Brynn

brynn wrote:So what happens after a bug is fixed? Do Inkscape developers ever release patches, in between stable version releases? Or are we stuck with this until the next version comes out?

There will be a 0.46.1 with some patches, but it's unlikely that any of the above problems will be fixed (as they aren't fixed yet). Apart from that, there will probably only be development snapshots until 0.47.

Wow! I can't believe this new version has been released with such major problems

The trouble is that what is a major problem for you may be unimportant to developers, so nobody may be interested in fixing it (if they are even aware of it).

Is 0.45, or even 0.44 still available?

Yes, everything back to 0.37 is still available from http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=93438&package_id=99112.

I don't think 0.45 will be any good to you, as it's minimum window size is even larger than 0.46's, making it essentially impossible to use duplicate windows on a 800x600 screen.

Or would a System Restore get me back my older, but better functioning version?

No, you need to uninstall 0.46 and then install the one you want.

The trouble is that what is a major problem for you may be unimportant to developers, so nobody may be interested in fixing it (if they are even aware of it).

I must not understand what you mean by this. Because if these are "officially" reported bugs, doesn't that essentially make developers aware of them?

And if a new version release is so much worse than an older version, that a user wants their old version back, I would think developers would absolutely want to know about it. And if a feature is not functional, because developers think it's unimportant, why was it ever introduced to the app to begin with. And how is making a graphics program work on the 800 x 600 screen res an unimportant feature?

SURELY I have misunderstood what you mean?

brynn wrote:SURELY I have misunderstood what you mean?

No, you just misunderstand how the development of Open Source software works The developers are all volunteers, they do it for the love of it. They're not paid and there isn't a boss breathing down their neck.

I suspect many become a developers just to implement features they want to use, not to fix bugs introduced by someone else. So you have to keep an open mind about how Inkscape is developed. These guys are giving up their evenings and weekends whilst everyone else reaps the benefits.

Perhaps these bugs may inspire you to have a go at fixing them yourself?

Perhaps these bugs may inspire you to have a go at fixing them yourself?

Well if I knew anything about coding, this version would not have been released with these problems. Because I believe in giving back, in general (or paying it forward, as is the current trend in terminology), and I already would have involved myself in the process. But I don't know any programming languages, much less Inkscape's. However, if there is some kind of editor for Inkscape's programming language, I could probably learn it myself. But I'm doubting such an editor exists?

Other than that, I have a slight problem with your comments, microUgly, with all due respect. No offense intended, of course, it's just my perspective. I DO understand that Inkscape is an Open Source project, and that work is done by volunteers. And I also understand that as volunteers, the programmers are absolutely going to focus on their own individual areas of interest. However, there's another side to the development of Inkscape, in my view, which I think is more important. And that is its position as the best SVG app around, free or paid, together with developers' apparent goal of Inkscape being the 1st full-featured SVG program. Is this a misunderstanding on my part? Because if not, it seems not to be in the best interest of this goal, to release new versions which behave worse than the previous versions. It's perhaps my lack of ANY experience programming, which makes me think that a new version should at least work as well as older versions. I understand that 0.46 has some new features, but imho, it should not be at the expense of other pre-existing features. Also, I think far more people use the 800 x 600 screen resolution than the developers apparently do. And I especially think a graphics program of the caliber Inkscape is and/or hopes to be, should work at least with the 2 most popular screen res, if not all of them.

And just to be clear, I want to say again that the above is my opinion. Perhaps it's an ill-informed opinion, but I'm not sure it's unreasonable. And also, I mean NO disrespect to the developers, who despite everything, have put out what we know as Inkscape, for better or worse.

Anyway, thanks microUgly and sas, for your help and comments. I've already exchanged 0.46 for my old 0.44, and am happily continuing to learn the basics.

First up let me put this in context by saying I'm a dev (if one of the less active) the following is my opinions, not necessarily reflective of the wider team...

Now I'll start off by saying we'd never choose to introduce regressions into the app, but if we never released unless there were no bugs we'd never release.
The issues with smaller screen sizes and our toolbars is something we were aware of and I believe is semi fixed in SVN already, however 800x600 is clearly a less common resolution than you seem to think as it was something which we were getting relatively few complaints about. from some googling, the stats show that the no of people with 800x600 is pretty low, probably <9% of users on the web.
(http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm#res & http://googlewebanalytics.blogspot.com/ ... -best.html for instance)
from those stats 800x600 is not even among the top 2 resolutions. other than the Eepc and the likes I think you'd be hard pressed to buy a machine using that res these days. I appreciate not everyone has a cutting edge machine, but then that also means they cant necessarily expect to run the cutting edge versions of software.

We dropped windows 95/98/ME support when GTK hit a point where it didnt support things we needed on those platforms, that was a concious decision to not support the newer features on older systems to allow us to continue to progress the app with features for newer ones. Likewise I guess currently our 0.46 release is not friendly to lower res screens. It is something some of our devs are trying to fix, but I'll admit it probably not among the highest priorities.

With regards to coding, Inkscape is standard C/C++ and GTK/GTKmm so there are plenty of editors available for our code. The guys are extremely helpful to people starting out with the language, I for instance had never done any C++ before picking up the inkscape code, and have learnt all my C++ on this project.

The issue with the grids does seem like a weird one, and a bug should be filed on it if there isnt one already in the tracker, again tho, probably not the commonest case so not something that would get picked up by many users. We cant test every edge case, and so rely on the userbase to report things. That said, just the fact its been reported cant make it no 1 on our priority list, as theres an awful lot of things reported. Being aware of it is not the same as it being fixed. And although it may not be what you want to hear, not supporting 800x600 in the latets version doesnt rank all that high on my list of 'major' problems with 0.46.

Like micro said, the majority of effort gos into things people put effort into coding are things that they have a personal investment in, if non of the devs are affected by these issues then the awareness may be quite low, and if no user who is affected has raised them/offered to help with the bug fixing then the priority in general is likely to be quite low.

Hope all that makes sense

Sim

brynn wrote:Other than that, I have a slight problem with your comments, microUgly, with all due respect. No offense intended, of course, it's just my perspective.

No offense taken I think we've all ran into issues with software that inhibit us and become quite frustrating to deal with. In an ideal world things would work as you suggest, but even in the commercial world they don't.

For reference, users running monitors at 800x600 is the least popular of all resolutions making up 0.97% of visits on this forum in the last three months. Although, if Inkscape was a business and they were customers, you wouldn't ignore them. It's probably not so bad Inkscape has dumped support for Win 9x users since they only make up 0.3% of visitors here, which is a lot lower than I expected.

If you have some spare cash you should definitely invest in a new monitor. Monitors aren't given enough attention by many PC buyers which is strange because a crappy monitor can make sitting in front of the best PC torturous. I noticed the size of your scroll bars, so perhaps you have it low rez so things are bigger and easier to see. If this is is the case, and you're running XP, try increasing the resolution and then increase your display DPI.

Thank you for your comments, Simarilius and microUgly.

My monitor isn't old or outdated. I could use the 10?? x whatever resolution setting, if I could read the screen relatively well. I use the 800 x 600 screen resolution because of visual issues. And on top of that, I've tweaked my display settings to make some things even bigger (especially the scroll bars). Just for example, I can't read the Inkscape rulers at all. I can see the ticks, but the numbers look like short thick lines, despite my special settings. This may help explain my need to depend on the Duplicate Window feature.

Hope all that makes sense

It doesn't make sense to me, although I understand your comments. But then again, as I said, I have no background in program development, and thus have no appropriate "measuring stick". I can only compare it to my experience with new versions of other, not necessarily graphics programs. I rarely see bugs, and the new version usually performs better than the old. Yet in this case, I see several bugs, and those features I use perform so badly, I'm better off with the older version. This has never happened in my experience, which is why I felt like sharing.

so there are plenty of editors available for our code

Can you recommend any of the editors, or I guess, a general term for them, for searching purposes? My searches often wash up because I don't know the right terminology to search with. Would it be something like "C/C++ editors" or "GTK editors"? I suppose I would have to "get over" joining the mailing list but I definitely want to look into it futher.

Thanks again for your comments

brynn wrote:Can you recommend any of the editors, or I guess, a general term for them, for searching purposes? My searches often wash up because I don't know the right terminology to search with. Would it be something like "C/C++ editors" or "GTK editors"?

You just need a text editor that has a C++ mode. (Actually, you don't even need that, but a C++ mode is a definite plus.) As C++ is one of the most popular programming languages, almost any source code editor will do, e.g., Notepad++, GNU Emacs or Vim. I don't really have a recommendation, because although I use GNU Emacs, I remember that it took a lot of configuring until I was happy with it (and, in fact, I gave up the first time I tried it).

I've just discovered NetBeans IDE for my PHP programming, but it's also good for a variety of other languages including C++. It's fairly feature rich, so it might be a little overwhelming for someone who knows nothing about programming - but once you get your head around it it makes life a lot easier.

brynn wrote:I should probably say that I use the 800 x 600 screen res, and Windows XP Home sp2.

You'll be pleased to know that the Inkscape window can now scale much smaller in the 0.47 builds.

Absolutely pleased!

Happy camper!

PS -- Since I'm still considering becoming involved in development, despite knowing little to nothing about it, I find this especially interesting. I've just stumbled upon it in the Wiki FAQ. On the outside chance someone else like me (toying with the idea of learning code) might read this, I thought I'd tack it on the end of this topic.

What's a good way to get familiar with the code? It appears in Development Topics section of the FAQ.

There's also this helpful section: Contributing to Inkscape
(It's not how to donate $$, it's how to donate your time)

I'll create a sticky thread with links to these resources in it.