I was talking with Phil Oakley (http://philipoakley.org/) about using open source software in the creative industries recntly. Phil is a professional who advises business on how they can use open source software. He was interested in talking to me because I use Inkscape and other open source software for my artwork, both professional and personal stuff. Anyways, in our talk I mentioned that one thing I think would really help open source creative software take off is if it was treated as a creative suite of applications, in a similar way to Xara or Adobe programs. It'd be great if programs like Scribus, Inkscape and GIMP all had consistent interfaces and ways of working, not to mention a similar brand. It'd just help with recognition and possibly ease of use. For example, the set of keyboard shortcuts for one program is quite different from another. It'd be great for all users if they were the same or at least similar.


This was originally going to be a long blog post but I figured it'd be better to talk with those who actually use Inkscape and other Open Source programs!

So, what do you think? Should the software be treated as a sort of creative suite/all-in-one package? If so, who do you talk to to get the ball moving?

I agree that a familiar interface between applications is going to really help adoption. I thought the tango project was a step towards applications having a similar look, but I know there was a lot of resistance to including Tango icons with Inkscape. So I'm not sure how successfully it could be taken further with keyboard shortcuts and etc.

I can't think why there was a lot of resistance. Do you think it'd ever be implemented in the future?

Thanks for the link to the freedesktop.org thingy!

hellocatfood wrote:I can't think why there was a lot of resistance. Do you think it'd ever be implemented in the future?

Errr... there was a lot attempts to create logical arguements about why the current set is superior to Tango. Did you know the Rectangle, Circle and Polygon tools are blue, red and yellow respecitively for a reason? Homework: see if you can figure out why (hint: it has nothing to do with symantics). So one of the reasons Tango was a weaker set was because it didn't use these colours in it's own versions of those icons. Others suggested the paintbucket is unrecognisable because of its tilt and the way the paint spilled from it. Most of the arguements came back to the assumption that most users are extremely stupid an incapable of recognising the Tango version of icons despite the fact that they are more likely to be familiar with them if they've used other open source software. Of course, I would never suggest that Tango is the best set of icons in the world. I favoured it purely as a way to help familiarity.

Having said that, a Tango set will be distributed with 0.47 (it's in the dev) but it's not the default set.

Hi.
Recently my friend Jesusda (www.jesusda.com) finished the Tango icon set for Inkscape, creating the missing icons and tweaking some of the existing to fit the theme.
His changes have been commited and the set is available in SVN, although not as the default set.
I'm trying to bring back the discussion about Tango icons in inkscape to the devel and users lists and see what the community think about having the Tango set as default.
In my opinion, Tango icons will improve the familiarity between FLOSS graphic apps (GIMP, Scribus, Inkscape) and will bring some coherence to Inkscape's UI.
The current icons are just fine, but they lack a clear style systematization. They look just as what they are: A set that have been augmented without solid style guidelines.
They look a little bit childish and definitely not too professional.
Inkscape is a great program with some features that even exceed the features of most of the pro commecial applications but a lot of people overlooks it because it doesn't look pro.
I'm not saying that Tango icons will make it look pro, but more streamlined and coherent with the other important free graphics packages.

I'd really like to know what's the community feeling, so I'm asking the responsible of this site if it's possible to add a poll so the users can express their opinion about this subject.

Thanks in advance,

Gez.

I'm a big fan Tango icons. I don't pretend that they don't have their faults, but they are clean and I think consistency between applications other OS applications is a strong benefit.

I debated the use Tango icons in Inkscape at the very beginning of the development of the current tango set. I take my hate off to those who made it happen. I wanted to have a strong involvement, but for the most part real life activities got in the way soon after I tried to get involved.

I remember key members of the community having an extremely strong opposition to Tango icons for Inkscape originally. Their opinions may have changed since a set has now been developed, but if it hasn't then you might have to demonstrate that it's wanted by the wider community. To properly gauge that interest I think perhaps a 0.46 compatible version of the set should be posted on OpenClipart so people can try it now (or at least see them).

I think the idea of a creative suite is very good. But before talking about icons, you should look into features. For example exporting/importing svg. It's not consistent through the apps but i think it's one of the most important features... or the most actually if you extensively use inkscape, try to export an svg from inkscape with some blur or filters to scribus...

As for the icons story itself, i agree that it should be consistent through the apps.. but... as i use inkscape on an everyday basis for pro/non-pro work, i've been trying the new tango icon set.. and on a 1920x1200 screen.. they are practicaly unreadable to me even worst some appear blurry. The old ones (actual ones) might be childish for some, but they are much faster to recognise because of their simplicity and stong outline.

The idea of an Open Source Creative Suite (OSCS) is a great idea.. I see discussion here about Inkscape, Gimp, Scribus.. but what I am not seeing is Blender.

I doubt you will see Tango Icons in Blender... the interface is far too involved for that. So, how would you set up a nice suite including the following:

Blender
Gimp
Inkscape
Scribus

Would you also include Open Office in the mix since creativity is more than just images and can take root in writing as well?

I think you'd a mostly consistent interface. In relation to the three programs listed (Blender's too different) I think Inkscape's is the easiest interface to use. It's the dockable panels that win me over.

What also would be good is if you could download keyboard shortcut packs. So, if you like Inkscape's shortcuts you could download a 'gimp for Inkscape users' shortcut pack that'd make the shortcuts for common tools (select, move, paint bucket etc) the same as Inkscape.

That's just one of many ideas that I have

I'm not exactly up on most of those acronyms ETC (so i hope i don't embarrass myself here...)
But it has occurred to me may times over the years that it would be a great idea if someone were to release an open source generic UI...

Perhaps such things exist and perhaps one of them has already been mentioned in this post..i don't know....
Anyway I think it would be advantageous even for the inkscape project if someone were to strip out alot of the code realivant to the UI and create a seperate project based purely on the UI...not just for inkscape but for anyone...

This project could then be expanded and developed as a stand-alone generic UI... and it could be adapted and developed so that it could be customizable to the N'th degree...

Is there any kick ass open source UI projects out there?
If not then why not create one.... having people dedicated to polishing a separate (but obviously cross linked) project solely for the development of a world class adaptable UI system ETC would no doubt attract all kinds of expertise not attracted to graphic apps....
And the pay-off would obviously be more world class coders focusing indirectly on the inkscape UI.....

Obviously if such a thing did take off future versions of inkscape might have to re-work alot of the code to be in sinc with such a "sister project" but i think compartmentalization in this respect could pay big dividends....

Perhaps i just naive, ignorant or a dreamer....
But this idea appeals to me....

Ive often wondered weather and if so what functionality Microsoft windows lends to developers UI wize....
I mean the office suite ECT or other microsoft products (developer studios ETC have nice UI's) wouldn't it be nice if this kind of thing was available wholesale to developers so as they could concentrate on more core stuff....
Does every app have to re-invent the wheel when they start off ETC...?

In any event if such an open source UI project existed it no-doubt would support profiles ETC so people could create their own icon sets even specifying their own size ETC laying out all the menus eTc
Prehaps the whole thing could be designed to be modular and expandable so that every UI device would be like a sperate object and have dedicated code like a plug-inn or something and people could write new UI devices new types of Buttons or drop downs or sliders or what ever takes their fancy....
Perhaps even way out stuff...
Would this add another level of higher level code that would slow things down un-acceptably?
Perhaps not if it were done well i don't know...any thoughts from people who know more about this stuff than i do?
Is such a project viable or needed?

that's essentially what gtk is, it started as all the ui widgets etc of gimp extracted to a library to allow easy creation of consistent uis. Qt is the other main option, which is what all the kde apps use.

David Hewitt wrote:Ive often wondered weather and if so what functionality Microsoft windows lends to developers UI wize....
I mean the office suite ECT or other microsoft products (developer studios ETC have nice UI's) wouldn't it be nice if this kind of thing was available wholesale to developers so as they could concentrate on more core stuff....

I think you have to pay MS if you want to use their new fancy "ribbon" interface. I'm not sure that you are even allowed to write your own code to clone it. Just mentioning

This is what i expected...i guess they are not as big a company as they are from sharing everything....
And they have enough momentum now to stay a light year ahead of open-source...
but i bet behind all the bravado they would have one gimpy eye sideways...aways watching....

This gtk or whatever...im guessing its not good enough yet to be viable for inkscape?
This being the case.....what a shame.....
The world needs such a thing...but of course it has to be good enough that people want to use it....

gtk is what we already use, along with most of the apps that come with the Gnome desktop manager.

I think to get a shared interface for the creative suite would require to fork Inkscape,Gimp, Scribbus, Blender and whatever you want in it. As it is not 1 company doing all the products, each team is working on their own ideas for the code and UI. So I think it would be quite difficult to go to them and say "look.. it's nice what you've done all those years, but why not to start from scratch and have all your software get the same face and work flow?". I'd rather have them developing separately as it is now, until they complete 100% of their primary goals (remember that as advanced as it is.. Inkscape is still not in version 1.0), and then eventually starting a cross software work flow.
But that's the beauty of opensource.. if you really like to have this creative suite.. the code is (mostly) done, it's up to you to build a team or by yourself to start a new project for a homogeneous creative suite interface and functionalities based under the hood on the original softs.

So are you saying that all these open source apps currently use GTK as the basis of their UI's ETC....?
But that each respective app has obviously gone in different directions UI wise and that they are all as a result incompatible?

its a shame really but understandable...

But i imagine it would none the less be possible to achieve a synthesis of all these apps under the umbrella of GTK...

I.E... by further developing GTK to encompass all the new functionality offered up by the additional UI updates to each app respectively.....
Creating a common denominator in effect...
then stripping the UI code from all the individual component apps, and upgrading the remaining (Core) code of each app respectively to strictly adhere to the new adapted GTK (which now can accomodate each individual component app) ETC, then of course giving each a common theme and permanently outsourcing the continuing development of the UI to GDk.

There would have to be allot of flexibility between all parties....

Perhaps my programing Nativity is showing here... i dont know....
But i cant help but feel that the road forward (the first key steps anyway) lay in someone taking the initiative to seriously overhaul GTK in such a way so as to incorporate either the additional code already added into each individual app respectively
or new similar code that achieves the same result...
Then modifying what remains of each app so as to adhere to the new GTK ETC....

Is this possible? Is that the way other more knowledgeable individuals than myself would see things developing to achieve this aim?

Or is that all irrelevant and the sticking point is just that each individual party can not agree on a common UI with respect to workflow, feel, layout ETC?

ok I need to understand what you mean by ETC... you are using it like it has a different meaning than the one I know which is like to say "and so on" and used as part of a list.

The etc I know is a short form for Et Cetera.

David Hewitt wrote:Perhaps my programing Nativity is showing here... i dont know....
But i cant help but feel that the road forward (the first key steps anyway) lay in someone taking the initiative to seriously overhaul GTK in such a way so as to incorporate either the additional code already added into each individual app respectively

To be blunt, it's your naivity showing I don't pretend to be an expert, but my understanding is that GTK allows developers to create an application interface that will work on a variety of OSes. It defines elements such as radio buttons, dropdown lists, sliders and other more complicated systems so the programmers don't have to themselves. GTK isn't about forcing developers into a rigid UI, it's just about giving them the common controls to build their own UI.

It's easy to think all application should do the same thing, but in practice it doesn't work. Different software have different UI requirements. Not even Adobe can pull together a single interface that works for its entire suite. You can't create a single rigid framework and tell Inkscape and GIMP to fall in line--it would be devastating.

Yes i said somewhere there that i did not know what GTK was so your agreeing that i was ignorant about it does not surprise me I guess...

My ponderings as to what could possibly be the matter with GTK if anything, were designed to draw a response that would directly answer those specific gaps in my knowledge that i exposed to you...

The whole point was to determine whether the problem was related to GTK itself or just consensus..

I have my answer now....thanks.....

P.S it was not my idea that all these open source apps could or should be blended into one coherent UI ETC...
Although the idea did intrigue me.

Darth_Gimp wrote:ok I need to understand what you mean by ETC... you are using it like it has a different meaning than the one I know which is like to say "and so on" and used as part of a list.

The etc I know is a short form for Et Cetera.

Where ever you see ETC... you can mentally insert the words "and so on"... that is all....

David Hewitt wrote:

Darth_Gimp wrote:ok I need to understand what you mean by ETC... you are using it like it has a different meaning than the one I know which is like to say "and so on" and used as part of a list.

The etc I know is a short form for Et Cetera.

Where ever you see ETC... you can mentally insert the words "and so on"... that is all....

LOL ok.. maybe its seeing it in all caps that threw me off.

Now to get back on topic...

I think the idea of a creative suite is a good one.. I for one do not have the programming kung-fu to make it happen. Also I think it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that each application (gimp, Inkscape, scribus) have gone out of their way to build and maintain a distinct look and feel from each other. This may be the barrier to tackle first.

I think this is a great idea, a single install with co-ordination & cross-compatibility & import functions would make the OSCS very valuable & streamline the designers task.

I would be supportive of this idea, what is the next step? perhaps proposing it to the communities of the other applications?

It would be good to get a name and location to base the project established, I actually dont mind open source creative suite, but I am sure we could come up with something better.

The people behind Ubuntu Studio may also be interested, it should align with what I believe they are trying to do.

I know that I originally suggested this idea, but after a lot of thought, use and involvement in the communities for these programs I've realised that it'd be quite a mean feat to get this going.

I think it's worth a try though