Inkscape Board Meeting Transcript for Friday, 2020-03-06

Tav********* Inkscape Board Meeting **********19:00
Tavhttps://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Board_Meetings19:00
ScislaCHi19:01
TavHi ScislaC!19:01
doctormoHello everyone!19:02
Tav@ tedg  ?19:02
RdH:wave:19:03
doctormoDo we know who is leading this meeting today?19:04
Mctedg and bryce are not here ?19:05
Tav@ doctormo  No, you noted some people were going to be missing.19:05
doctormoYes we know bryce is missing, he said so last month19:05
doctormoSuggested we not host a meeting at all. So I figure this meeting can be light and based on the people who show.19:06
ScislaCI'm assuming Ted might be at SCALE?19:06
doctormoPossibly19:07
ryangorleyYes. Ted said he wouldn't make it for that reason19:07
doctormoOK, then I guess we can start down the meeting agenda. Hackfests I think is the first item.19:08
Mcbefore LGM ?19:08
TavThe biggest issue, I think, is getting the Rennes hackfest organized. I thought I sent out a proposed resolution to the mailing list but it doesn't seem to have made it.19:08
TavI was thinking of three days (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) before the hackfest.19:09
Tav(hackfest starts Tuesday)19:09
Mcthere are 5 people currently listed on the attendees page19:09
doctormoSounds good to me (organisationally). My main concern is that we have a person who can stick by the event and sort out the details.19:09
TavWe need to reach out to people.19:09
Mcwe may have a bit more people, I think linkmauve will come for instance19:10
TavAh, I sent it to the SourceForge list...19:10
Mcnot sure if others havent listed themselves19:11
TavOh, Bradley is sending mail to the SF list.19:11
Mcnot to inkscape@sfconservancy ?19:12
doctormoIt's time to shut those mailing lists down.19:12
TavOh, he responded to and email from Ted... so it is likely Ted that did it first.19:12
tedg_Probably my fault, I'll mention it to him.19:13
tedg_Reading on my phone. So slow replies 😉19:13
TavHe's sent email to SF before, so maybe not.19:14
TavJust sent out the proposed resolution to the proper board list.19:14
doctormoRight so between Tav and Mc (or someone else) do we have a responsible person who's doign the LGM hackfest?19:14
doctormo(It looks like Tav, just want to confirm that)19:15
TavI plan on going. (I think I might be a responsible person).19:15
Mcresponsible ? :D19:15
TavOK,, maybe not.19:15
doctormoas in "Able to respond"19:16
Mcoh19:16
TavI think between Mc and me, we can handle it.19:16
Mc:)19:16
doctormoSo there's the venue to sort out and invitations to possible attendees.19:16
Mcvenue is sorted out19:16
TavWe have a venue.... https://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hackfest2020_Rennes19:17
doctormo:thumbsup:19:17
doctormoAny other Hackfest related items we should discuss?19:18
TavWe should get to a vote, is Bryce still handling that?19:18
Mcjust the budget allocation19:19
doctormoI think bryce would like that, but it's a standard allocation vote so I'm sure you can send direct to the mailing list.19:19
tedg_Yeah, just use the template form so that it'll fit into the repo.19:20
doctormoShall we move onto GSoC?19:20
TavSure.19:21
Tav======== GSoC ==========19:21
Mca lot of prospective applicants ^^19:22
TavWe've had quite a few inquiries and a some patches submitted. I'm afraid I haven't kept careful track.19:22
doctormoLooks healthy19:22
Mclike ~4 serious ones before the applications even open19:22
TavMarch 31st is the application deadline.19:24
doctormodo we need any vectors pushing for gsoc applications?19:24
McI don't think it would be ideal19:25
TavIt wouldn't hurt. But probably more useful for developers to help insure applicants have good plans in place.19:25
Mc(on a more vector-related topic, we have 0 planned talks about inkscape at lgm)19:25
TavI'm not too worried about not having Inkscape talks at LGM. I think networking there is more important.19:26
tedg_I think that talking about it also gets the idea of developing Inkscape out there. Even if not applications, and excuse to encourage developers.19:27
doctormoWe'll bring it up tomrrow at the meeting19:28
TavI'm really interested in seeing how the Spiro+ development is going.19:28
Mcraph levien curves ?19:28
Tavhttps://raphlinus.github.io/curves/2018/12/21/new-spline.html19:29
tedg_Do we have to worry about the chance of LGM being cancelled for COVID-19?19:29
McI think it's small enough19:29
TavIt is a good fit for Inkscape as it can be perfectly described by Beziers.19:29
TavIt depends on how large and epidemic it becomes. I think will know in the next few weeks.19:30
Tav(At the moment it should be OK.)19:30
tedg_K, cool. Really effecting events in the US right now 😕19:31
Mcreading twitter it looks like americans are really "panicking" much more than europeans19:32
doctormoLibrePlanet released a statement, but otherwise ok19:32
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doctormoThere's a general sense of unease, but honestly, Boston is fine. Shops still have things.19:34
Mcbut well, in that country one can pay 5k$ just when going to the doctor and people know it, and in france you will pay 2€ when going to the doctor and you know it, so maybe they're right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯19:34
doctormo;-) In the UK you pay £0 :-P (for now, all bets are off)19:35
Mc(anyway, back to the topic ? ^^)19:35
doctormoAre there any other things to talk about for GSoC?19:35
TavBTW, everyone is covered in France for medical issues (even tourists).19:35
Mcnot board-related19:35
Mcwe might discuss proposal drafts19:36
TavDo you have a list of drafts?19:36
Mc2 sec19:36
doctormo(the next item is the release, which is also not board related, but I think very important to discuss when we get there)19:37
doctormo(the next item is the release, which is also not board related, but I think very important to discuss when we get there)19:37
Mchttps://gitlab.com/rathod-sahaab/inkscape-2020-gsoc-proposal/-/blob/master/Application.md and https://gitlab.com/Phoenix181/gsoc-2020-proposal/-/blob/master/Application.md19:38
TavBoth look like they've given some serious thought to their applications. Aadhish's plan is over ambitious, I think, and probably needs to be restructured.19:43
Mcyeah the first two weeks could last for 10 weeks :D19:43
doctormo:-)19:44
TavAbhay's got a good idea, but also probably needs some refining.19:44
Tav@ vanntile  , aren't you applying?19:46
Mc(imo the first part may be easier than thought and the second part may need too much preliminary ui/ux work to be easily used)19:46
TavI'm doubtful of the Python part, but the other parts maybe possible (especially after the action and shell mode work).19:48
Mcthe first part looks "easy" : iirc scribus/blender/gimp/ do it already and there is a gtk method that lists all actions19:49
TavYes, we use the method to list the actions in the command line mode and also for command completion in the shell mode.19:50
Mcwe need to make sure projects amount to ~3month of fulltime and mostly code19:50
TavYup!19:51
Mcabout applicants, linkmauve will apply, btw19:51
TavWhat about mentors? Do we need to recruit a couple more?19:53
Mcdepends on what19:54
McI could mentor many stuff but I don't think I could mentor a project with a primary focus on a part of user interface19:55
doctormoI could probably do a UX/UI based mentoring.19:56
TavWe can also do some co-mentoring.19:56
Mcyes19:56
tedg_If we have good applicants we should make sure to get more mentors listed for sure. I think that Google limits apps by number of mentors signed up.19:56
Mcwe'll see depending on the number of good applicants when applications open19:56
doctormoWe should get to the release discussion (almost an hour into the meeting)19:57
Mcah yeah I didnt see the time19:57
Mcnot a so short meeting after all, just not primarily about board matters :D19:57
Tav========= Release Discussion ==========19:57
doctormo@ RdH  @ede123 We probably need your current assessments.19:57
Mc+ @speleo319:58
RdHI came prepared...19:58
RdHThe overall status for macOS hasn't changed in the last months: there are a couple of serious issues that clearly say "don't call me 1.0 stable".19:58
This should not block Inkscape's 1.0 release as the non-existing progress on the macOS front (to not step on anybody's toes: I'm talking about our serious GTK related issues) would stall that indefinitely. IMHO we need to figure out how we're going to call the macOS 1.0 to make clear it's not of the expected quality. And that it'll stay that way, presumably for a very long time, until somebody comes19:58
along who puts in the necessary work.19:58
https://chat.inkscape.org/channel/team_devel?msg=fcxZrQALhQvpuAiME19:58
Mc:D19:58
doctormo"Inkscape 1.0 Experimental for MacOSX"19:59
Mcnecessary work in gtk or in inkscape ?19:59
doctormoOK So apart fromt he MacOSX/Gtk specific issues, any notes about the quality of the codebase?19:59
TavWhat are the serious macOS bugs.19:59
RdHThings like dialogs/windows not closing, staying semi-transparent, requiring the user to force-quit the app for instance20:00
doctormoProbably these three right? https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/boards20:00
RdHJust go to the issue tracker and the inbox, click on "OS:macOS" and you'll see who bad it is.20:00
RdHThere are still a few things that I am working on but I consider them fixable. Not necessarily for 1.0 (depending on when that happens) but after.20:02
RdH(i.e. packaging related stuff, Python/extensions, ...)20:03
speleo3there have been some improvements on the Gtk side, but here are very few macOS contributes for both Gtk and Inkscape, it's a second class citizen unfortunately. But the biggest concern for me  is actually performance, for me Inkscape is just too slow on macOS for productive work20:03
RdH:-/ I was hoping that would improve as performance degradation was common among all the platforms? Or has that changed recently?20:04
speleo3all platforms are affected, but I feel it the most on macOS20:04
ede123No, on Windows performance of gtk3 is bad in general (with upstream being "doubtful" they'll ever be able to fix it in gtk3 branch)20:05
ede123(not sure that makes any statement about gtk4 for that matter)20:05
tedg_Who is working on GTK for OSX? I thought there were a couple of corps doing products with it, but no more?20:05
doctormoWe're in a pretty nasty bind for Mac and Windows re Gtk it looks like.20:06
doctormoBut this might not be something we can reasonably fix for 1.020:06
Mcnope20:07
RdHI only know (as in: knowing his name) John Ralls. I think he is the only one over there.20:07
Mcwe can't migrate to gtk4 :D20:07
doctormoShould we release 1.0 for both windows and mac under the "sorry this sucks" banner?20:07
Mcwe miiight be able to ask gtk people "uh, everything is slow, do you know how we could improve that ?" but with 0 hope20:07
jabiertxofhi20:08
doctormoHi Jabier!20:09
jabiertxofslow is a rendering cairo issue or GTK one?20:09
Mcgtk20:09
Mcnot really rendering, ui management20:09
RdHI have no reason to believe Gtk people are more interested in improving proprietary platforms then you guys (no offense)20:09
jabiertxofI have rendering issues slow on HiDPI displays that need to render double data20:10
RdHas in: they're probably all 100% Linux and free software advocates as well20:10
ede123if we release as "sorry this sucks" there's not much point in releasing at all ^^20:11
doctormo@ RdH  that depends on the people, the company etc. the best situation is where there's a backer for a propritary platform.20:11
ede123We should simply make it clear that there "can be performance degradations"20:11
doctormo@ ede123  There is a cost for not releasing at all.20:11
ede123So people can decide for htemselves if they want functionality or performance20:12
speleo3on the positive side: I think XML editor is in decent shape now (compared to the betas)20:12
NPJ2000(I think 1.0 works wonderfully on macOS from my builds …)20:12
doctormoThumbs up for being clear about the performance issues.20:13
jabiertxofI think the delay is a20:13
jabiertxofbout 80-90 rendering 10 ui20:14
jabiertxofas far my rendering test on linux20:14
doctormoHmm, I'd put it at 60% rendering, 30% signals, 10% UI.20:14
jabiertxofmaybe20:14
speleo3fact is: the Gtk2 version on macOS feels fast!20:15
jabiertxoflinux one also20:15
jabiertxofgtk2 is not HiDPI so double fast rendering20:17
jabiertxofon mac20:17
doctormoWe can't go backwards (unfortunately). I've dealt with a couple of speed issues and most are too big to patch 1.0 properly.20:17
doctormoSo we're stuck with a release that has issues, but we may not be able to fix for the release.20:17
doctormoMaybe I can get a show of hands/messages. What one thing would be demand we have before releasing? (straw poll)20:19
jabiertxofwe can make optional hidpi20:19
jabiertxofrendering canvas20:19
doctormoAnyone else?20:19
Mc@jabiertxof ??20:20
TavNo crashes.20:20
jabiertxofrender canvas without HiDPI with a toogle button or a HiDPI display mode (sloweast)(20:21
speleo3(can't name a fixable thing, I would release as-is)20:22
TavI've fixed one of the two text blocker bugs. I'll get to the other in the next couple of days.20:22
ede123I think we found a few more issues and caused a few regressions while fixing issues, so we should wrap that up properly.20:23
(Nothing serious and we improved a lot, though!)20:23
jabiertxof:)20:23
ede123For example style/property handling seems still a bit fragile20:23
Mc(same as speleo3 , maybe https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/issues/539 )20:23
ede123(and obviously text - always text, especially with all the new SVG2 functionality)20:24
Mc+1, we need to make sure text "works"20:24
doctormoYeah text causes me the most discomfort. But we've fixed quite a lot :-)20:25
doctormoI'll be asking the vector's team tomorrow the same question.20:25
doctormoCan I ask that if you know of issues that should block the release (as developers) please tag them as blockers.20:26
doctormoIn GitLab.20:26
ede123I think we still have differing definitions of "blocker"20:28
ede123For me blocker means "there will never be another Inkscape release if we can not fix this"20:28
Mcsame20:28
ede123I've heard the term used more often as "user will be annoyed" recently20:28
ede123(which is true for any bug and subjective)20:28
ede123So we need to triage and fix the high-priority ones if possible (but they won't make Inkscape unusable per-se)20:29
ede123If we can fix everytthing with high importance in this list we have a solid release IMHO: https://gitlab.com/groups/inkscape/-/milestones/120:30
ede123If we can fix the medium priority bugs, too, we'll have a good release.20:31
MoiniThere are two 'Importance::High' labels?20:31
Moini(same number of associated issues, though)20:32
vanntile[ ](https://chat.inkscape.org/channel/team_devel?msg=ruXhRWjquzupA2qzj) @ Tav   Hey, I will be applying, but I had a giant uni project that just finished and didn't have the time for making the application20:32
vanntileI've been thinking of what's the best thing I should apply for though20:33
vanntileAdvice?20:33
doctormoThe blocking statement is literally because when asked people would shy away from committing to a release, but wouldn't be able to say why. These items are more definitive.20:33
Tav@ vanntile  Good to know! I don't have any advice at the moment, ping me next week if you still need advice.20:34
vanntileOk, we'll talk20:34
ede123@ doctormo  But t´hen we won't release...20:34
doctormoOr we will, either way.20:34
doctormoPersonally I think we should move to release in the next three weeks.20:34
ede123The the blocker label is worth nothing20:35
doctormoPush to get as much fixed in that time, but do the deed.20:35
doctormoOK, it looks like we've reached the end of this discussion (at least in terms of what people think of where we are). Tav should we wrap up the meeting?20:37
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TavYup, I've got to go...20:37
doctormoThanks everyone!20:38
Mcthanks everyone20:38
doctormo================ Meeting End ===================20:39

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