Inkscape Board Meeting Transcript for Friday, 2022-03-04

tedLet me go ahead and use the magic header.
=== START PLC MEETING ===
(now it's official)
Agenda
18:00
c.rogersWoo!18:00
ted* SFC Items (ted)
* Student programs (Outreachy, GSoC, etc) ( @Tav )
* Developer meeting update (Mc)
* Vectors update ( @ryangorley )
* Infrastructure update ( @doctormo )
18:00
scislac[m]Hello18:00
ted* Administrator job process status ( @doctormo )
* Current Votes Status
* Next Meeting: April 1, 2022 (not a joke)
So I'll kick things off with SFC update
SFC update financial overview: https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2265702
Biggest
change is just rebasing everything to 1/1/2022 instead of 1/1/2021 otherwise mostly unchanged.
(more donations, but not hugely different)
I spent some time with Pono trying to figure out why some older documents had different yearly number for our financials.
Long story short, probably everything is fine it is a change in the way that the accounting categories are done.
I mention it here for two reasons, one to publicly say thank you to pono for all the spreadsheets he pulled for me. And two to make sure everyone knows if you look at old budgets things aren't all apples-to-apples. They're close, but don't expect the exact dollars to line up.
18:00
c.rogersThanks Pono!18:03
karenthanks Ted for putting in that time!18:03
tedThe other thing I'm tracking is the SFC change to a new payment processor which I'm told is still in progress. But that will hopefully solve the Asia donations problem.18:03
doctormoExcelent18:03
doctormoWhich system did you got for in the end?18:03
tedAny SFC questions or other things I should be tracking there?18:03
c.rogersWhat software is being used to track our donations and accounts?18:04
c.rogersGNU Cash?18:04
ponoWe haven't decided yet, we're currently testing a few that'll provide Stripe and other support beyond PayPal18:04
tedI can't remember the name, but the SFC is building a package for managing non-profits.18:04
doctormoLast I heard it was some scripts Bradley wrote, but that was a long time ago.18:04
c.rogersAh, cool.18:04
ponoThe donor management component needs to be well vetted before we decide.18:05
karenwe use beancount for the actual accounting18:05
doctormoThanks!18:05
karenwhich has been working out pretty well, our auditors seem impressed18:05
tedHeh, and that's what matters the most, make the auditors happy. 🤣18:05
doctormoAbsolutely.18:06
karenit has required us to put in a lot of work to generate all of the right reports and the like, but it's free software so our work helps others too18:06
c.rogersDefinitey!18:06
c.rogersThanks for contributing back to the project.18:07
tedSo next up: * Student programs (Outreachy, GSoC, etc) ( @Tav )18:07
karen:)18:07
TavWe'll hear soon if we've been accepted into GSoC.18:07
TavI have to say the GSoC website is difficult to use.18:08
tedHeh, it is tradition.18:08
doctormoOutreachy is no field of buttercups either :-/18:09
tedDo we need to apply for Outreachy for the summer? Or does that happen automatically?18:09
doctormoWe're funded for outreachy, but we have no mentors atm.18:09
tedFeel like I'm asking an age old philosophical question, what comes first? The mentor or the mentee?18:10
doctormoThe mentors, for sure.18:10
karenno you need to sign up to participate in outreachy, so it may be too late if you haven't18:10
c.rogersOutreachy is one of the SFC's member projects. isn't it? Can we perhaps get feedback to the project to see if the bumps can be ironed out?18:10
tedK, so we need a mentor with a project lined up.18:11
karenapologies for the Outreachy website, it's on our list of things to do to fix some of the website issues, but we've put a ton of work into it already18:11
doctormo@c.rogers Yes, I gave sage some feedback last year, he's aware. But busy.18:11
c.rogerscool.18:11
karenyeah they are aware, we have a serious mountain of work :)
but outreachy is hiring a new contractor,which should help a bit
18:11
c.rogersAwesome.18:12
doctormoAce, thanks for all your hard work, I know you guys have some pretty big legal cases too.18:12
karenit's tough to run the program and also improve on it, but we do improve things every single round18:12
c.rogersAs is the FOSS way. Haha18:12
karenhaha yes!18:12
c.rogersThough this next release is properly blowing my mind. Haha18:13
tedSo I guess what I'm confused on is do we need to promote to look for mentors? Do we want to? Or are we just out for 2022.18:13
c.rogersI'm having to re-write parts of my book.18:13
karenI can check to see if anyone signed inkscape up for this round if you're not certain18:13
doctormoIf we're not lined up, I'm thinking we're out this year. We need a much more solid mentor plan for outreachy.18:13
doctormoIt's a lot more work to manage an outreachy intern than for example google summer of code.18:14
tedOh, I didn't realize. What are the big differences?18:14
karenyes, we find that successful mentorship really involves some ongoing engagement with the intern18:14
c.rogersYea, time for a campaign would be good to. We haven't really done any social media callouts for it, have we?18:14
doctormoI'm hopping Marc and the rest of us can get together to reformat our mentor stipend plan with teds comments and resubmit it. I think that will likely help a bit.18:14
karenI think we say about 5 hours per week
(sage is more focused on this part of the program)
FWIW, we haven't found stipends to help with this problem
18:14
doctormokaren: there's broad support for us to offer a small stipend to mentors for both GSoC and Outreachy. We're working on the details.18:15
doctormoJust outreach?18:16
tedYes, I don't know that stipends would help, but I see it as more of a Thank You.18:16
c.rogersYea, I think the stipend is less to entice, and more to reward mentors and show them the project appreciates their time.18:16
karenah, we have a history of stipends causing bad feelings in the community (the history was with GSoC stipends)18:16
tedIf it is 10 weeks at 5 hours a week and we're giving $400, that's not a good rate.18:17
karenI know that google has expressed some really mixed feelings about how they also work out, whcih is part of why the emphasis is on a donation to an org
right, it doesn't really solve the problem, but increases logistics in myriad ways
has caused infighting
I'm not sure, but probably best to think carefully about it
18:17
c.rogersYea, it's not supposed to be payment for mentoring.18:18
c.rogersIt's supposed to be: Have a new monitor or a weekend at a spa on us for your troubles.18:18
karencommunities that find non monetary ways to thank people seem to do a bit better18:18
doctormoMy own position is that I can't do mentoring for free, it's way too much work and my backers pay for code, not mentoring. If the project can't support me, I can't really do mentoring at all. But this is my unique circumstance, I understand.18:18
tedYes, I think it'd be more of an issue if folks were fighting to get those mentorship positions. But we have the opposite problem of we'd like to get more mentors.18:18
c.rogersIt's a common one, I'm sure.18:19
c.rogersI'm kind of in that same boat for the video this year.18:19
ponoThe non-financial and non-code contributions to projects can really help show a commitment to the community. But like it's been mentioned, that is not an option for everyone.18:19
karenit's completely understanable to have only limited volunteer time!18:20
c.rogersI'd love to spend the time as previous years, but I don't have the time this year, and need the money to live.18:20
ponoI'd be happy brainstorm some ways to look for new mentors sometime (outside of the PLC meting :) )18:20
karenthis is a good time to thank all of you for all of the time you put in just being on the PLC!18:20
tedAnyway, as far as the agenda item is concerned. It sounds like we're out of Outreachy and Google is TBD.18:20
doctormosounds like it.18:20
c.rogersYea, agreed.18:20
tedOkay, next up I have developers but Mc said he couldn't make it.18:21
karenthe nice thing with outreachy si that there's another round in just a few months!18:21
tedCan someone else give a dev meeting update?18:21
c.rogersMaybe some community motivation management will get us more mentors.18:21
doctormoSure, I was the chair at the dev meeting anyway ;-)18:21
doctormoThings are progressing, we're in a freeze which most developers understand and mostly mrs are fixes and tidying up.18:22
doctormoAlpha1 went out for stability, and seems to be pretty solid from user reports.18:22
tedNice. Any major release blockers?
If not, ship it 🤣
18:22
doctormoNone. Speed and various intractables, any fixes for those have to wait for 1.3 anyway.18:23
doctormoTranslators and I'm sure various people have pet bugs they'd like to squash18:23
tedYup. Makes sense.18:23
c.rogersBeen using Alpha1 for some time now. I love it. It's impossible to go back. Haha. @doctormo has been great in fixing some papercut issues.18:24
c.rogers(in production)18:24
tedCool and are devs happy again with CI? We'd talked about funding so different CI builders at some point, but it seems that's gone away?18:24
karen\\o/18:24
c.rogerswhat's the CI?18:25
doctormoCI didn't crop up in the dev meeting smuch18:25
tedContinuous Integration, the builds and tests that run on Gitlab.18:25
doctormoCI is the builder that makes the merge request app images and runs tests18:25
c.rogersAh, thanks.18:25
doctormoWant to shout out the work by vectors on this year's about screen contest: https://inkscape.org/gallery/=about-screen-contest/contest-for-12/18:25
tedCool. No reason to change something people are happy with.18:25
doctormoThe artwork is amazing. HArd to pick when it comes up for vote.18:26
c.rogersFrom an outside perspective it's been great. I've been able to test new builds hot off the press for MR.18:26
c.rogers(for the CI)18:26
tedNice, lots of fun designs.
Probably a good segway to: * Vectors update ( @ryangorley )
18:26
doctormoRyan doesn't apear to be online on rocketchat at the moment.18:27
doctormoOh wait no, there he is.18:27
ryangorleyI am18:27
ryangorleySorry18:28
tedHeh, it is Just-in-time-Ryan 😉18:28
ryangorleyWas multitasking18:28
c.rogersLot's of randomly drone-themed ones. Haha.18:28
tedWe don't leave idle Ryan's lying around.18:28
ryangorleyThe about screen contest is attracting some nice results so far. The team is doing a great job on managing those.18:29
c.rogersI'm wondering if we shouldn't queue our entrants in the future with a shortlist of new inkscape features we'd like to have show up in the aboutscreen art...18:29
c.rogersque18:29
c.rogerscue?18:29
ryangorleyqueue18:29
ryangorley:)18:29
c.rogersnot queue. Haha18:29
ryangorleylol18:29
tedPrompt?18:29
c.rogersyes!18:29
doctormoDifferent topic!18:29
c.rogersprompt. Thanks18:30
ryangorleyCome by and mention that at the Vectors meeting tomorrow. I think it would be a good idea.18:30
tedI want to see someone do multi-page in the about screen. 🤣18:30
c.rogersCool.18:30
ryangorleyThe Chemnitzer LInuxtage (sp?) event is coming up soon.18:30
c.rogersEr, hmm. If I can make it. It's Aless' birthday.18:30
ryangorley@Moini has got a number of volunteers organized to help at the booth and do presentations.18:31
ryangorleyThat event is the later part of next week.18:31
c.rogersnice work @Moini18:31
c.rogersThanks for handling that.18:31
ryangorleyI'm working on a t-shirt design (not finished) for the attendees. We'll be seeking funding approval from the PLC.18:32
tedNice, is there anything else you need for the release planning?18:32
ryangorleyHonestly, I don't know. Probably, but I'll have to take the pulse tomorrow at our meeting. It would be great if someone from the dev team could join us to make sure we've got our plans aligned.18:33
doctormo@ryangorley You said you may want to request funding for an agnostic release video, is this still the plan?18:33
ryangorleyYes... I haven't worked out the details enough to ask for it yet though. Been too busy and I'm worried I've waited too long for someone to execute.18:35
doctormoPossibly, but there's 2 months to go.18:35
ryangorleyIf we do a release video I'd rather just seek funding for CR to do it. I don't have time to manage a bidding/vetting process on that kind of thing. I don't know if that's permissible though.18:35
karenwe've got a procedure for hiring PLC members in our conflicts of interest policy
we'd have to discuss it without CR :)
18:36
c.rogersI'm still up for it.18:36
ryangorleyPlug your eyes Chris18:36
c.rogersHaha, I'll just leave now... ;)18:36
karenI should say that Conservancy hired CR for our own video and I'm super excited to release that one :)
we should schedule a separate time to discuss, or just start an email thread without CR on it
18:36
doctormokaren: do you need a private room or chris to just leave atm?18:37
c.rogersHehe, yes. I'm finalising some details. I just added borders on all the laptop stickers in that video. *tweaking intensifies* ;)18:37
karenwe can discuss it now though if you'd like!18:37
c.rogersDo I need to go?18:37
karenCR can just leave... but should we push it to the end of the meeting?18:38
c.rogersI can also just shut up. Haha18:38
doctormoted: this is a bit off topic, if you'd like to conclude the meeting?18:38
tedI think it'd make sense to have a specific meeting for it, for no other reason as I'm not sure we have requirements prepared?18:38
karenI was actually turning up because I had some questions on the job posting
though I really love coming to meetings!
18:38
tedYeah, we have an agenda item for that... but not there yet 😃18:38
karenI'm not sure if this is the right place to have that discussion either18:38
doctormohaha, so we have a PLC video meeting next week, or we can do an irc meeting, which would you prefer?18:39
karener, I love coming to Inkscape meetings, not meetings in general, I should clarify :)18:39
c.rogersWe love having you and Pono there!18:40
tedMy thoughts would be that perhaps we should let vectors decide what would be best in their meeting tomorrow. And then have a meeting to get that.18:40
ryangorleyThat sounds good to me18:40
karendoctormo: do you mean for discussion about the job posting or for the video?18:40
tedLike the list of features, length, etc.18:40
karenthat's a great idea, and would CR be a part of that meeting?18:40
doctormokaren: for the video. If I can ask pono or yourself to come next week, we can talk conflict and video.18:40
doctormoJob posting hopefully is today.18:41
c.rogersI can be, but really, that stuff has been worked out through doing previous videos.18:41
karenso basically the conflicts policy says that if a PLC member is going to do the work they can't be part of scoping that work out18:41
ponoWe can also talk about the conflict of interest on list.18:41
c.rogersUnless what's wanted is drastically different. :)18:41
karenthey can be asked questions, and provide their opinion/feedback18:41
tedOkay, @ryangorley, can you call a meeting with all the PLC folks minus CR after you guys have a plan?18:41
karenso if CR wasn't going to be at that meeting anyway that's convenient :)
but if so, better to act as a resource and answering questions as a possible contractor than as an active participant in that decisionmaking discussion
18:41
c.rogersRequirements are worked out on gitlab for each video.18:42
c.rogersAs well as a loose completion schedule.18:43
c.rogersjust fyi18:43
tedWell, I think that we can fund a 10,000ft plan. And then assign someone to be in charge of details to work it out.18:43
doctormo@c.rogers ted's suggestion to let ryan pull together the details makes sense. Not the full vetting, but the scope etc.18:43
karenconflict of interest policy is here: https://sfconservancy.org/projects/policies/conflict-of-interest-policy.html
specifically
the section entitled \
18:43
c.rogersYou can also just re-order the same thing from previous years to save time.18:44
c.rogersOr use just as a basis for ongoing requirements.18:44
c.rogersWould it be useful to write something up?18:45
c.rogersI hate to make Ryan etc. start from scratch.18:45
doctormonope, oposite of useful unfortunatly18:45
tedK, I think we lost @ryangorley but I'll follow up with him and see how we can get to something we can move on.18:45
c.rogersRyan's here.18:45
c.rogersHe's typing.18:45
ryangorleyI'm just trying to follow the direction of this18:45
tedOh, I can't see him type. /me gets telescope18:45
c.rogersRocketchat is superior to IRC in this way.18:46
c.rogersfor meetings.18:46
ryangorleySo I have two things I need to do 1) discuss conflict of interest requirements with someone at SFC; 2) scope out the project without CR, right?18:46
karenryangorley: or just read the policy :)
we're happy to help and answer questions of course!
18:46
tedNo, discuss the overall goals with Vectors and then bring them to the PLC minus CR.18:47
ryangorleyAh, okay. I can do that.18:47
doctormoJust make sure CR isn't involved in the scoping of the work. As in the policy.18:47
ryangorleyI thought he just can't be in the voting stage18:47
karenright!18:47
tedWe also probably need someone who'd be assigned to approve minor changes/refinements/etc.18:47
c.rogersWhat's right?18:47
tedRight, CR can't scope the work.18:48
c.rogersOkay.18:48
c.rogersNor offer guidance. I'm not worried. Ryan is a video guru too. Haha.18:48
tedCool. I think that finishes off Vectors.18:49
ryangorleyThanks18:49
tedNext up I have: * Infrastructure update ( @doctormo )
Not sure there's much there?
18:49
karen\18:49
doctormoNot updates this month, all's well.18:49
karen(we need to update the policy for gender neutrality btw)18:50
tedCool, thanks for watching that @doctormo18:50
c.rogersOh, okay. So I can offer guidance it sounds like.18:50
tedNext up: * Administrator job process status ( @doctormo )18:50
c.rogersJust not be a part of any decision making.18:50
karenright you can provide facts and answer questions
but not be a part of drafting the scope of the project or vote on it
18:50
doctormoThe job is drafted and at https://inkscape.org/jobs/project-coordinator-2022/ ted has asked for more time to consider an additional bit of text to clarify the fact that this is a contract not a W2 job.18:51
doctormoAnd karen has some questions.18:51
tedYup, I've reached out to a recruiter at work and she suggested a small change to the wording.
I'll get that out this afternoon.
18:51
c.rogersOkay, so @ryangorley , if you want to schedule a Q&A about the video process (if it helps), I can be there to answer questions.18:51
karenah! that was my question that I wanted to raise, I think the post is a bit vague on this point.18:52
doctormoOther things of note: there is a private mailing list where job submissions will go. The initial vetting panel is recruited and standing by to process them. Pono and I are on the list as observers.18:52
tedShe also suggested that the title be updated to have a \18:52
karenIs it ok for me to provide some small changes to the posting to clarify a few things?18:52
tedkaren: sure, send me some text I'll include it.18:53
karenIt took a ton of work to get the Outreachy job posting ready: https://www.outreachy.org/blog/2021-10-14/hiring-for-an-outreachy-community-manager/18:53
tedI'm just getting the whole thing into a text document now.18:53
karenawesome ted!18:53
doctormokaren; yeah this job posting has been a lot of work to put together so far. So many details!18:53
karenyeah of course!18:54
doctormoPono suggested many of the pieces from the above post, which was very helpful.18:54
c.rogersA heroic effort by @doctormo btw.18:54
karengreat!
very cool, thanks doctormo!
so do you already have a structure in mind for how this person will work?
18:54
ponoGlad we've been able to iterate and get everyone's feedback.18:54
karenwho will manage their time? decide their priorities?18:54
tedOne question I had while you're here karen is how day-to-day management would go. I figured they individual would report to someone at SFC? Or will we need to assign someone to check hours/etc?18:54
karenheh we have the same question!
we can definitely help!
18:55
doctormoThe main report will have to be the PLC, but there's a part of the job description that depends on volunteers being able to help the person get into the rquired work.18:55
karenwe will need to sort that out18:55
c.rogersIt would be best for the SFC to manage it, if that's possible.18:55
karenis this meeting made public in a log?18:55
doctormoYes18:55
karenI've been speaking a bit loosely
ah ok
18:55
c.rogersAs you folks have the most experience on it.18:55
doctormoThis is a public meeting18:56
tedSure, but the problem will be that there's always going to be more work than time available. Someone will have to choose that.18:56
karenyes and reporting to a committee is hard
but we review the work of all of our contractors at the time of invoicing at the least
for outreachy where we have an employee (as opposed to a contractor) we have more active management/interactions
18:56
tedCorrect, I think the PLC should only be on the yearly and trial basis.18:56
karenthat include daily check ins and more extensive weekly meetings18:56
c.rogersCool. I think that has a lot of value.18:57
karen(I meant an employee for a member project)
but this is also because employment is fundamentally structured differently than a contract position
you can also see how we worded that in the most recent outreachy posting
where we were hiring a contractor but were open to structuring it as an employee
18:57
c.rogersWe could make it part of the job description to prepare weekly accounts of what was done in line with what the SFC recommends.18:58
doctormo@c.rogers Already in the job description18:58
c.rogersAh, I need to re-read it clearly.18:58
doctormoThis is going to be a bit of a bootstrap process too, but hopefully between the SFC, PLC and the rest of the inkscape community, there'll be a lot of oversight.18:59
tedSo I guess the question karen are you willing to do the same type of management (with input from the PLC) for this contractor? Or would they have to be an employee for that?18:59
karenthat's a good question. We of course would be willing to help Inkscape however it needs! :)19:00
c.rogersAwesome. :)19:00
karenIt would probably be slightly differnet management due to the different relationship (the laws are clear that employees and contractors are not just the same position with different names and paperwork)
but we'd be happy to help manage the contractor
19:00
doctormoVery much so (see uber)19:01
tedI'd prefer to not use Uber as an example 😉19:01
c.rogersHeh. I would hope we'd be a better employer than Uber. :P19:01
karena contractor will have more independence by the very nature of the relationship
haha well that's the point! if it's a contractor then we're not an employer! :D
19:01
tedCertainly, I guess I'm more concerned about the evaluation, feedback and prioritization aspects.19:02
karenbut we want to treat our contractors fairly too of course19:02
c.rogersSure. I don't think we should discount a contractor. Or were we leaning towards an employee?19:02
karenyes this is something we can help with. I do have regular meetings with other contractors for our other member projects19:02
doctormoOK, so I have all the original documents here. If you want to suggest language karen, or ted, I don't mind redrafting (draft 6) and putting it for vote, or ted you can make a vote too.19:02
doctormo@c.rogers It has to be a contractor at the moment.19:02
karenand since pono has been involved in meetings, perhaps it makes sense for him to have regular meetings iwth this person19:02
c.rogersYea, I think that makes sense.19:03
doctormoI'd like to be involved with that, I have a lot of tasks on that job description that need to be transfered.19:03
karenit's a bit of a relief to hear that as it takes a lot of time to set up employment relationships (every state in the US is different and it's downright difficult to set up an employee relationship outside of the US)19:03
ponoThat is definitely something I can do :)19:03
karenand since this is just a 20 hour role...
pono: I hope you don't mind me volunteering you :)
Bradley and I will also be reviewing the work reports in the ordinary course of the contract
he and I make all of the payments, and as a part of that we read all reports to make sure that the invoicing is right (and also to make sure things are on track and looking good)
19:03
doctormoThat's very reasuring.19:05
ponoNot at all, and of course happy to help.19:05
tedK, we don't have a monthly report to the SFC, should we add that to the requirements?19:05
karenand we can allocate more resources if it looks necessary
ted: it will be in the contract
19:05
doctormoAlredy in the job description: \19:06
karenwe encourage/require contractors to publish monthly reports so everyone can see how our money is being spent :)19:06
ted@doctormo, yeah, not sure if that is the same though? Not sure of the contract requirements, etc.19:06
doctormoIt's part of the work we're asking them to do.19:07
c.rogersI think that's actually pretty specific.19:07
c.rogersWhich is good.19:07
tedkaren: thanks for clearing some things up there. I think that explains the relationship a bit more to me. Do you have other anything you need us to do for that?19:08
karenI dont' think so! I'm just glad I'm getting a firmer idea of what you all intend to do with the hire
and I'm excited for this!
it will be so good to have someone in this role!
19:08
doctormoYes, me too, lots of work to do. :-) keeping track of votes for example.19:09
tedI think so too.
Lots of learning for everyone involved.
19:09
c.rogersExciting times. :)19:09
tedOh @doctormo, you're the king of segways today!
Next up: * Current Votes Status
19:09
c.rogersHaha19:10
ted2FA keys, only missing Scislac, open (Mc)
Mentor stipends, everyone voted, open ( @Tav )
FSA Update, everyone voted, open (ted)
I'm talking with @ryangorley about getting a vote together for t-shirt for volunteers to staff our virtual booth at Chemnitzer Linuxtage. So expect that soon.
I missed @RdH's reply on the M1 Mac, so I've followed up with him to ensure that's still what he wants to do. If so, I have that written up and it can go out soon as well.
That's what I've got.
Oh, and plus the job description update.
19:10
c.rogersImpressive amount of work.19:11
scislac[m]Apparently I missed that vote going up again. Will do that after the meeting.19:11
doctormoThanks ted; do we have any update of the FSA, it's a key dependency.19:11
TavI'm not clear on what to do to \19:12
ted@doctormo, no, I just forgot. I'll do it this afternoon.
@Tav, just report the results and say \
19:12
TavWho reports the result to SFC?19:13
ted@Tav, I do.19:13
TavOK.19:13
tedAnd I've been updating the repo of resolutions at the same time.19:13
doctormo@Tav Techncially the SFC are also looking at inkscape@sfc* so CC'ing that mailing list is useful.19:14
tedI think that pono is also on the inkscape-board one. So I tend to only use the inkscape@sfc oen for private stuff or \19:14
ponoAnd always feel free to reach out to me pono@sfconservancy.org if you need something
I am also on the inkscape-board list (and the jobs@ list @doctormo created)
19:15
tedAnything else for the meeting? Sorry for going over everyone.19:16
doctormoThanks to pono and karen for sticking with this long one.19:16
c.rogersYea, thanks!19:16
ted=== END PLC MEETING ===19:16

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